Western vs. Islamic Philosophy – Venus and Mars
Christians must to find a way to justify war because their founder was a pacifist. Muslins have to defend peace because their founder was a warrior.
Although I am not a pessimist, who sees the conflict of cultures as inevitable, we ignore this distinction at our own peril. The Obama doctrine of political correctness would have us believe that all religions are inherently peaceful. By turning a blind eye to the fundamental philosophical differences between East and West we only delude ourselves into believing that humanity will not give into to its baser instincts. History has shown this point of view to be naive and dangerous. American foreign policy must never be built on the shifting sands of wishful thinking but rather on the solid bedrock of history and philosophy.
Since the Enlightenment of the 18th century the West has relied on reason as the primary source of legitimacy for moral authority. The intellectual and philosophical developments of the Enlightenment, as reflected in the U.S. Constitution, guarantee more freedom for common people based on self-governance, natural rights, natural law, with an emphasis on liberty, individual rights, and a recognition of non-sectarian deism. It is with this in mind that we view the underlying Christian philosophy of a just war.
Although virtually all Christian sects have from time to time ignored the teaching of their founder and initiated unjust wars, the philosophical barriers needed to justify their actions handicap them. In the early fifth century the Algerian-Christian philosopher Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, developed the Christian rationale for a just war, that is, war that is acceptable under certain conditions. Firstly, war must occur for a good and just purpose rather than for self-gain or as an exercise of power. Secondly, only properly instituted authority such as the state must wage a just war. Thirdly, love must be a central motive even in the midst of violence. This third prerequisite has also been interpreted to mean adversaries will take all action necessary to ensure that non-combatants are spared.
In a more modern version for example, The Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1992, lists four strict conditions for “legitimate defense by military force”:
§ The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
§ All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
§ There must be serious prospects of success;
§ The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
On the other hand the Muslim world has traditionally taken a more theocratic view of warfare. In fact, American-Muslim relations were born in antipathy. In early 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then minister to France, and John Adams, then minister to Britain, met in London with the resident Tripolitan ambassador, Abdrahaman, to try and negotiate a peace treaty to protect American shipping from the “Barbary Pirate” regimes of Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis and Morocco. In the process, the future American presidents asked the ambassador why his nation was hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke or offend his country. The ambassador answered as Thomas Jefferson reported in a letter to Foreign Secretary John Jay and Congress on March 28, 1786:
“That it was founded on the Laws of their prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Disregarding for a moment the sanitized version of history, Islam is unique among religions in that it was founded by a ruthless illiterate warrior, Mohammad, who used assassination to advance his cause, was responsible for massacres, evicted or enslaved non-believers, engaged in forcible conversion and led by his own account a hedonistic life.
Mohammad left behind a supremacist legacy in which non-believers should only be tolerated if they pay a tax in acknowledgement of Muslin superiority and remain in a state of subservience. While secular Muslims try to distance themselves from this heritage they are reminded on a daily basis by their more devout co-religionists that Jihad is their sacred obligation. Can moderate Muslins completely ignore the more belligerent rants of the Koran?
Moderate Muslims counter the extreme view with a rationale that is similar to the Christian justification for war. “Islam accepts the theory of just war. The just war is a war whose purpose and objectives are just. The war has to be when peaceful negotiations and all efforts of dialogue and negotiations fail. The war is to be waged only in self-defense against aggression and oppression. The Qur’an says, “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. …So if any one makes aggression against you, you may likewise aggress against him, and be conscious of Allah. Surely Allah loves those who are conscious of Him.” (2:190-194)
“The war is allowed in Islam under the righteous leadership that understands God’s rules concerning inflicting harm upon or taking the life of another person. Those who do not know these rules have no right to proclaim a Jihad. It is the rule of war in Islam that non-combatants and civilians should not be harmed. The civilian targets such a homes, markets; places of worship, animal forms or agricultural lands should not be attacked. This condition alone is so stringent that one may wonder how the modern warfare can be permissible in Islam.”
Since the liberating ideas embodied in the Enlightenment have not crossed the Mediterranean Sea or penetrated the deserts of Arabia reason does not temper the hold of religion on the actions of the many Muslim States or factions. The Muslim peoples natural desire to live in peace and prosperity is frustrated by a lack of an overriding philosophy.
In the 21st century there is an ongoing intramural war between secular Muslims who appear to have no natural champion, no John Locke, no Voltaire, no Rousseau, to temper the aggressive tendencies of Islam of the religious fanatics who justify their every action with the innumerable warlike verses of the Koran.
Can the secular Muslims win out? Only when they find the voice to openly admit and condemn the failings of theocracy and like the philosophers of the Enlightenment distance themselves from the moral authority of religion. It all begins with the recognition of individual liberty and freedom of expression without which belligerent theocracy will continue to hold sway. It will be a difficult path for the Muslim establishment to recognize the equality of believers and non-believers, men and women, gay and heterosexual but one that is essential to integrate the Muslim community into the modern world.
In a very real sense the ball is their court.
Excellent post, well researched and written. I must disagree with your conclusion that the ball is in their (secular muslims) court. Rather the burden is on the west to demonstrate to all who care to see, that aggression, or bluntly, conversion by sword, is a losing propostition. Only then will moderates find their voice. Sad to say, but for the wesit comes down to the old saying, the best defense is a good offense.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Although there is truth in what you say, it is not true that “jihad” is a “sacred obligation” - at least, not in the sense and context that “jihadists” mean it - and allowing them to get away with calling acts of terrorism “jihad” just plays into their game. Moreover, Islam forbid the murder of non-combatants.
Marnie Tunay
Fakirs Canada
http://fakirscanada.spaces.live.com/default.aspx
June 8th, 2009 at 8:53 am
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June 9th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Sorry, I disagree with your assumption that there is an ongoing battle between secular Muslims and religious Muslims or that the future of our civillization higes on who wins. Secularism has nothing to do with how peaceful a civillization is going to be. It is rather just what the West would have us believe to be the only solution but is infact nothing more than a well-cloaked imperialistic agenda to think and act more like the west. Why are people so scared of things different from themselves? I would say that I am far from secular but that does not hurt my chances of being peaceful.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
man, you really need to go back and read a history book again..
you really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about..
if i recall, the enlightenment set off a series of wars between nationalist states and the church (you see, the church often resorts to violence to get its way)..
also, didn’t the enlightenment begin a period of unmitigated Western Imperialism throughout the world?
go ahead and tell subjugated africans, or indians, or chinese about your cute little “just war” theory
you REALLY need to pick up a history book
June 9th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
also, i recall the wars of religion that preceded the enlightenment to be so brutal, so violent and so destructive, they served as an impetus to END the influence of religion because it was seen as wholly negative by Europe’’s educated elite..
but we don’t want the facts getting in the way of the elegant, peaceful, civilized white man being fought by the murdurous, hairy, darker skinned savages.. =)
June 9th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Since the liberating ideas embodied in the Enlightenment have not crossed the Mediterranean Sea or penetrated the deserts of Arabia reason does not temper the hold of religion on the actions of the many Muslim States or factions. The Muslim peoples natural desire to live in peace and prosperity is frustrated by a lack of an overriding philosophy.
this paragraph is particularly troubling..
Europe has waged the MOST brutal, MOST savage wars AFTER the Enlightenment and done the MOST awful stuff..
i don’t seem to remember arabs committing the kinds of war crimes and atrocities we saw during WWII or since..
hmm..
June 9th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Absurd. To bristle at one while apologizing for the brutality of the other is to ignore the lessons of history such that they will be repeated to the same devastating end. The central tenets of Islam and Christianity are interchangeable, and to focus on their prophets and ignore that both religions worship the same God just demonstrates the bias that becomes even more apparent when reading any other entry on this blog. In Christian scriptures God himself murders millions upon millions, including women and children by the scores. The brutality of Christian regimes throughout history have been equaled only by the brutality of other fundamental regimes. The renaissance was in no small part inspired by the libraries maintained and scientific advancements made during the Golden Age of Islam.
I say these things not to apologize for Islam, a religion whose people today oppress the rights of women and indoctrinate children while murdering infidels in the streets. No, I say these things to expose your ridiculous fantasy that would have others believe that the values of one religion must triumph over the other. It is secularism and rationalism that must triumph over all religious fundamentalism. Fundamentalism thrives in poverty, secrecy, and ignorance, and to stop it means also to stop the ignorance of commentators like you who are willing to cherry-pick from history to give it a bent that’s to your liking.
June 10th, 2009 at 11:14 am
After reading your first para, it was clear to me that you have no knowledge of Islam or the Quran.
“Muslins have to defend peace because their founder was a warrior.” Any learned (learned means educated, well-versed in a subject area. I am defining this word to you because you are the opposite) man / woman would enlighten, and tell you the the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not a warrior.
There is a story in the Hadiht that describes the Prophet under the blade of the sword and when asked if he was afraid, he replied, “i trust that God will save me.” This is the extreme to which he demonstrated his peacefulness and trust in God. You are absolutely wrong in suggesting otherwise. Educate yourself.
And do not form your opinions on facts you got off of CNN and FOX. Read the history of Islam and the Quran.
June 10th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I have to agree with Kris on this one. In fact the muslims often refer to westerners as ‘crusaders,’ while you read some western history books (those written by enlightened people in a free society) I suggest you also read about the attrocities carried out over the centuries by christians (crusaders) on foriegn soil. I might also add they carried out similar atrocities whilst going through christian countries to get the muslim lands. Maybe at the same time you’ll pick up some history books on the inquisition, now there’s a just ‘civil’war. Just to confirm I’m not a muslim, I endeavour to live a christianlike life, if you read your bible I think you’ll find ‘judgement’ mentioned many times as a sin, maybe you should consider that.
June 10th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
oh.. i’m not apologizing for one or the other.. i’m saying, lets just call a spade a spade..
also, like many americans i am a materialist, that is to say, i don’t believe that societies fight wars over religion or other ideas, they fight wars over resources for survival..
like the conflict between syria and israel.. its all about water and strategic location..
our interest in the middle east is largely about oil..
lets just say it like it is..
and that’s fine.. i’m not a no blood for oil guy.. the people that are crack me up because they rant about not fighting wars for oil, but then get in their car and drive away
June 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
@David,
Are You kidding, the historical Muhammad fought at least 9 wars; 5 of which he personally led his followers into battle. I think that makes you a warrior.
@Charles. The crusades ended 700 years ago - its time to get over it. In todays world we deal with a liberal enlightened US Constitution vs. theocratic societies which support and encourage terrorism.
June 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
yes but william, many of these terrorists, particularly their leaders were armed and trained by us =)
June 10th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Its entertaining reading all the comparisons from the comments between Christian/U.S. history and how we have no right to judge or complain when we see someone making the same mistakes being repeated today we have made in the past. Yes the U.S./Western Civilization and any Christian past is filled with thousands of examples of just how bad they have been in history compared to Islamic cultures. Some one made a reference to the Native Americans, Chinese, and the Africans. If you are a U.S. citizen how do you propose we make amends for the “sins” of our forefathers? Are you willing to give up what you have to make it all better? No, but we can learn from our mistakes. We HAVE learned from our mistakes and continue to learn. That is where the divide lies between Modern Christians/Western civilization and the Islamic world. The heart of the Islamic world is making some of the exact same mistakes we have made not more than 100 years ago. Islam was created sometime around 600A.D. and remained located in roughly the same place and remains so now throughout its history while Christianity expanded and in turn had to deal with and evolve with a much larger scope of area around the world. This in turn makes you learn much faster. Muslims are not dumb, stupid, evil or even ignorant, just younger in a way. Less “enlightened” I guess you could say. In the grand scheme of things the Muslim way of thinking is just less experienced in the world and I doubt many could deny that fact. The point of my rant here is that the situation of our world will require patience from the rest of the world who has learned from its history. I suppose someone will become agitated with what I have had to say and I say to that person prove me wrong.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Never forget that what a Muslim says must be filtered through the fact that as “infidels” they can lie to us without fear of sin.
June 11th, 2009 at 7:30 am
man.. if only the muslims were as enlightened as us..
lets cut the crap.. the core of the conflict is that the muslim world possesses a vast amount of the world’s oil, which is a resource that we need to have..
we have shown ourselves quite willing and able to exert military force on the region to get the oil we want..
if they didn’t have any oil, OR we didn’t need their oil, this would be an absolutely moot point.. and we would not have this discussion..
the conflict is over natural resources.. not culture, not religion..
lets just stop pretending its about anything else
June 11th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
American Tea
when we go colonize the world again, we can hire you to bring the moral justifications..
we can save africa from the africans..
you know, they’re not as enlightened..
the white man’s burden must be a heavy one to bear
June 11th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
also, american tea
you REALLY need to pick up a history book too.. islam is as widespread as christianity..
and islam has most certainly not “remained located in roughly the same place and remains so now throughout its history”
if you consider indonesia, the largest muslim country in the world to be near saudi arabia.. i know it must seem close on a map.. but its not..
or india.. the 2nd largest muslim population..
there are also more muslims in china than in arabia..
one of the conflicts in islam today has to do with that very perception.. arabs make up an ever smaller portion of the world’s muslims, but still have the largest voice
June 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@Kris
June 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Too Funny!!!
June 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Kris
You REALLY need to read carefully and quit making bogus facts. Or rather half facts that only support crude and half thought comments. Just to put some perspective on your “facts” you have given. India’s largest religion is Hinduism standing at 80% of the population. Islam runs at a distant 13%. China’s largest religion is Buddhism. Christian second and Muslim at less than 1%. China isn’t even in the top ten of the largest Muslim populations in the world, but Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan are 6th, 7th, 5th, and 2nd are respectively on the top ten most muslim populous countries in the world and I am pretty sure those are considered middle east/Arabian, and consequently the heart of the Muslim world. I hope you can absorb some of this and process it by REALLY reading this time. Think before you spew with your fingers and you may actually bring something sensible to the conversation. Oh and Wikipedia isn’t the best place for “facts”. Just a suggestion.
June 11th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
american tea..
you really are irritating.. the second largest number of muslims in the world live in india.. 13% of a billion people is nearly the entire population of the middle east =) china also has a sizable muslim population..
are turkey, pakistan and iran arabic.. ?
are you even aware that there is a difference between muslim and arabic?
see folks, this is why they think we are ignorant.. because we are..
look at the CIA world factbook and see where the largest number of muslims live.. indonesia, india and pakistan..
all of which are more than 2 thousand miles from mecca.. =)
and NOT arabic
June 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
for those of you wondering, because american tea is the kind of person that apparently was involved in iraq war planning “sunni, shiite, arab, persian… they’re all the same”
all of the countries he mention that were “middle east/arabian” only egypt happens to be arabian..
iran, turkey, pakistan, indonesia, india, china.. none of these are arab societies..
iraq is only about 66-75% arabic (depending on how you count)
and yes.. the middle east ends ad the iran/afghan/pakistan border.. and at the dardanelles (which is the little strip of water between asian minor and the european mainland)
but you know.. i do love it when people that don’t know what they’re talking about accuse the rest of us of not knowing what we’re talking about..
June 12th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
the problem with blogs is that sarcasm doesn’t come through ..
June 12th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
i do apologize for the snark tone of my comments.. i’ve been unreasonably angry today.. i don’t know at what.. i suspect that’s not the best state of mind post discussion thread responses..
=)
we’re here to discuss ideas.. not shout.. and call names..
and i believe i started it.. one of my many character flaws =)
June 12th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Most Muslims justify violence committed by Muslims, in the past (the conquest of Christian lands and forceful conversion of there inhabitants in Syria, Jordan and Eygpt etc) and in the present (9/11, Taliban etc), by pointing to violence committed by Christians during the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, or IRA bombing in the recent past. This is a “if we are bad so are you mindset”.
The essential difference is that whereas Islam, in the Quran and Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) justifies this violence, Christianity does not. Islam essentially provides religious cover to war while Christians have to find loop holes in Christianity that allow them to wage war. Kings and states have through coercion or offers of reward (bribery) may have gotten the priests to show support from time to time but the point i am making is this. When has a Catholic priest justified the bombing of IRA? The IRA has no religious cover, though they might have many sympathetic priests, because it is hard to bend Christianity to lend support to violent behavior. This is not a problem for Islam as the Quran tells Muslims not to “Trust Jews and Christians”.
June 13th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
actually, the catholic church supports the IRA, bad example..
June 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Clearly, your cognitive dissonance is functioning well. More Christians have been murdered (in the name of ‘heresy’ )by fellow Christians than by any one else. Christians have also murdered millions of non-christians for being heathens, or some other damnable crime. Read a history book instead of a theology book. This article is about par for the course on this site. Your economic analysis is about as wrong headed as your religious ranting. By the way, as a non-American, it’s surprising to me how many of you actually think you live in a democracy with a ‘choice’. Your two options that you’re given by the plutocrats that control your society are, to quote Helen Kellar, are like choosing between ‘Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum’. Which one of them is to blame for the ponzi scheme that is your financialized econimic structure? Who cares, they’re both part of the same regime! To see you guys argue about that is like watching two clowns argue over who put the deck chairs in a certain position on the Titanic.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Where did you get the idea that Jesus is a pacifist?
Please define what is meant by some calling them selves “Christian”. There is a said faith and a professing faith, I dare say that most trouble that gets tied to Christianity comes from people with a said faith.
June 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I’m certainly not as learned as some of the posters on this issue but I have a sense that manyt people confuse religion (Islam and Chritianity) with the oppurtunists who act in their name.
The people who were responsible for the christian crusades and inquisitions were not true christians anymore than the taliban are true muslims. They all use religion as a tool to further their evil ends.
Religion and politics have always been and will always be an evil mix.
June 20th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Islam, Christianity, Democrat, Republican, Ignorant, Intelligent — the bottomline is that humans live in a state of terror between life and death and know that death is always upon them — so therefore need to find someway to defeat it. Group A gets up every morning and eats 2 goose eggs and then prays to the frying pan for cooking them. Group B gets up every morning and eats 3 duck eggs and prays to the fire for heating the pan that cooked the eggs. Group C comes along and says that Groups A and B are idiots and tries to reform them just to find Reform is nothing more than another feeble attempt to defeat death…the Grand Master. When I came to Earth - I saw that humans are just another form of animal that the Creator has created for the sole purpose of killing and ravaging the planet. Humans fight to the death and hate each other out of fear of the unknown. When a tiny drop of the Creator comes to Earth and takes on the body of an animal - it does so to create a Spirit and when it leaves the Earth - it takes with it all knowledge of the Game of Earth that involve Eternal Killing. Killing dogs, cats, whales, fish, deer, cows and the list goes on and on. Humans were made to come to Earth and Roll the Dice and see how many souls they can take. The REAL SECRET is that. Only the Grand Leaders of the Earth understand the truth and therefore — they are followed by the idiots who die willing for the Grand Leaders who are nothing more than the people they are causing to die. That is being a God. That is being Sentient. That is making yourself a martyr. Running into the street and dying for some other persons cause is ignorance….but, that is the name of the Game of Earth.
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
we could argue forever about the misdeeds of the followers in each religion. i will cut to the chase; what did the founder of each religion DO? and at which period in historical time? abraham had money and slavest
jesus worked around carpenters and fishermen , wasn’t wealthy, never made war,never had slaves or advocated slavery and healed the sick.
mohamhead however, clearly participated in war, took slaves, loot, had 11 wives (while telling others 4 wives max )whether we read the quran or hadiths . no amount of evasiveness or spin doctoring can justify in a rational mind mind that he did this 6 centuries after christ forgave sinners and told people to love one another. it took 3 centuries for christians to forget this.
christ’s immediate followers(the original apostles) mostly were martyred and certainly weren’t participants in military invasions, whereas mohamhead’s dirty dozen immediatly started struggling/killing each other for control once mohamhead(piss be upon him)finally died from old age on his estate. jihad only stopped when islamists finally provoked the european crusades.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:03 am
Reading everyone’s posts has been enlightening. I have learned some facts and observed some prejudices, and have received from all of you correction for some of my own prejudices. I suspect that it will take divine assistance for any of us to sort out fact from prejudice, so I offer my favorite prayer for myself and all others:
Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:43 am
@Rob
That’s a handy conclusion for the secular argument.
Religion distorts more than it informs and has ruined many more lives than it will ever be able to pretend to save. Every religion.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:12 am
I read the Koran over a weekend.It is a poor distorted copy of the old Testament.It has references to Abraham and Moses practically in every page.It is full of contradictions which unfortunately are all acceptede as the Divine Word and is interpreted according to the whim of the clerics!It is so misogynistic,cruel,intolerant and asks its believers to conquer the world by the sword and make it -ISLAM =submission-the only religion of the world.Women have no human rights are only to serve the pleasure of males and this is reason enough to stop this travesty lasting 1300 years already and eliminate ISLAM from the face of the earth.The Moslem paradise is only fit for male Bedouins who will have sex there with 72 virgins(Huris) in eternity!What about the paradise for women?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
So many prejudices, and so few open-minded souls … but you open-minded and educated ones shine like diamonds in the debris of misinformation … thank you!
Let me jump in with my humble effort to clarify some misconceptions:
Oil was not the reason for the conflict between the two religions, because up until the 19th century oil and it’s mechanised use was not discovered.
There is only ONE reason for the conflict between Islam and the Church (please note that I said “Church”)
Christianity evolved with the notion that the Church/priests are the arbitrator between people and God. Islam says that no one may come between God and the individual, that every person has a direct connection to God, with no intercession from ‘priests’ or whatever.
This was a direct challenge to the Church, which exists on the belief that they are the intermediaries, and so in effect, Islam made that powerful organization unnecessary.
Which, of course, meant war.
The church embarked upon a campaign of distortion, lies, re-interpretation to try to eliminate Islam as a threat, even waging war during the “Crusades”.
Islam does not think of Christianity or Judaism as “other” religions. When Islam was revealed, it was as a continuation of those religions. Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) are the prophets of Muslims as well - NO Muslim will ever say anything derogatory about any prophet. They are revered as is Prophet Mohammed. Contrast this with the vile words thrown routinely at Islam’s prophet.
Distorted interpretations, like the 72 ‘virgins’, advocated slavery etc are just that: distortions at best, lies at worst.
For example, ‘72 virgins’ has nothing to do with virgins at all. The word used is ‘hur’ which means: a clear (mistranslated as ‘fair’) raisen (grape) - which was a delicacy in desert Arabia. This is a metaphor, like saying the streets of Heaven are paved with gold and rivers flow with milk and honey. Only the ignorant and fools would take this literally.
(Ignorant Muslims are just as guilty of this - not having been educated, they will propagate such beliefs as well, because uneducated, manipulative men will use it to their own ends).
Examples like this abound. Look at some posts above (that the Prophet Mohammed had slaves (he didn’t, Islam in fact freed slaves).
All conflicts come about because of narrow-minded people and their restrictive,distorted interpretaions. The prophets, who were above all that, tried to pull us out of the mire that we insist on wallowing in.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:15 am
An added clarification:
Islam has no ‘clergy’ no priests. Please do not confuse what you see in Iran, for example, as a ‘clergy’.
They are Islamic scholars, and so have respect and authority given to them on the basis of their knowledge.
Some would like to become absolute ‘God-appointed’ rulers (men being men …!) - and so would like to create a powerful ‘church’, if you will … but this is against the heart, the core, the very basis of Islam.
None may come between you and God. All are directly connected to the Creator, and the true belief is only within your own heart and the Creator. This is what Islam teaches.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:24 am
yeh, but where do the zombies figure in? and who are those guys?
June 27th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I wish everybody in the world threw away Bible, Quran and Torah and started reading ” On the Nature of Things ” by Lucretius.
Written around 300 B.C. it encapsulates all the wisdom a human being needs for a good and peaceful life without making recourse to any supernatural entity.
When I finished the book I thought ” so much wisdom so long ago and look at what has happened since “.
I do share the view that Muslims’ big problem is that they never had something similar to the Enlightenment. Everybody should make note that the essence of the Enlightenment was ” Think with your own head, use your own reason to resolve issues and don’t let yourself be duped by people who want you to think their own way.
All religions try to brainwash people with their so called truths that they cannot demonstrate and they all love to keep the majority of the people they can control in ignorance and fear (so do many governments for that matter as recently demonstrated by the Bush administration) .
The ijtihad that propelled the Islamic Golden Age was brought to an end by conservative clerics getting the upper hand in a political struggle.
So stop talking about Christians, Muslim or Jews just start thinking with your own head as Lucretius did 2,300 years ago.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Dear Alberto!
Thank you for the reference of “Nature of things” By lucretius.
The huge problem is that moslems do not allow people to CHOOSE their way but they IMPOSE their will like the dress on the women,their marriage,their education,when and how they go out and all this according to the Moslem SHARIA law where honor stoning and beheadings are LEGAL ,as we read news reports from Afghanistan and Pakistan!
The Moslems listen to no reason and we must always stay strong militarily or else they will conquer us .They even said in the UK that it will soon adopt SHARIA law as their moslem numbers dangerouslyincrease and in a democracy the MAJORITY rules !
June 28th, 2009 at 9:06 am
American Tea,
Every time you make a comment you make yourself appear more and more ignorant. Turkey, Iran, Pakistan are muslim countries but are not Arab nor are they part of the Middle East. Turkey is part of Europe and may join the European Union, how stupid can you be?! 1% of China’s populus is muslim, do the math retard! How many people is that?! That is more than the population of the U. A. E.!!
Don’t go around calling yourself American, you make the rest of us look bad!!
June 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Shiism specifically has done much damage to social and economic progress in Iran. The Safavids in 16th century, by turning Shiism into an official religion against the Ottoman Sunnites, created a national identity that was useful politically but hampered progress. The killings of the Sunnites, the banning of music by Shah Tahmasb (late 16th century), the condemnation of philosophers, mathematicians, astronomres, scientists and sufis, who ran away to the Ottoman and the Indian courts all hamepered social and economic progress of Iran but helped INDIA AND TURKEY TO DEVELOP. In the 16th century, Iran had quite a number of philosophers and mathmaticians who could have laid the foundations of an Iranian enlightenment which never was allowed to take place because of Shiism and political expediency legitimized by the mullah ideology. The real winners were the Mullah as a politic- ideological class- defenders of the faith. The founders of the Shia ideology in this period were in fact not Iranians but came from Southern Lebanon. They replaced the local intellectuals many of whom were chased away. It was at this time, for example, that Persian music penetrated India and Ottoman areas and even today most melodies of traditional Turkish and Indian music have Persian names. These ideologue who didnt even speak Persian, refined the shiite ideology - a ritualistic and moralistic world view based on what the prophet and twelve Imams said and did and how best to imitate them (Akhbari). Amongst the rules are how to wash your back side in the toilet, and rules prohibiting the selling of your goats in your own town if you have had sex with them. This ideology and code of bahaviour regulated to the minutest extent how you should live but destroyed rational thinking and even today Iranian TV is one of the worst examples of this irrational world view.
Iran has only one choice - becoming secular. AND spending billions of its oil money in reeducating and modernizing its population and getting rid of the Mullahs before it can join the modern community of nations. Blaming the internal crisis on Britain is another example if irrationalism promoted by the Shiia ideology which is incapable of scientifc explanation of the world.
June 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Kinda hard to believe we have Americans defending a false religion called Islam, it is and always has been militant from it’s founder mohammed in the sixth century, the crusades were fought by catholics and muslims and the jews and real christians were caught in the middle and slaughtered, Jesus Christ advocated love your enemy, he is the prince of peace, to know him by being born again is to know the true God and His divine Son and Holy Spirit, we had over 3000 of our innocent citizens murdered and two of our tower like office bldgs brought down with our own commercial planes hi-jacked with men, women, and children on board who went to their deaths that day of 911, one we should never forget in history, two other planes were also hi-jacked and one of them did crash into our White House and kill more of our citizens and another was on it’s way to the same target, only brave Americans on board hindered that flight with the cost of their lives, across the world violence soars, bombs blowing up bldgs and human beings and Israel being targeted daily by these religious nuts[their civilian populations] and when they do respond, the useless UN and all the rest of the
nations raise holy hell about a tiny nation who decides to defend itself, Islam teaches it’s children to hate jews and Christians, because they are really and truly Abraham’s children, Abraham had the spirit of Jesus Christ in him, hard for sinners to understand, scripture bears it out.
June 28th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Dear Leonidas
unfortunately you are right. We all know that both Fascism and Nazism came to power legitimately through the ballot box.
One big mistake made by European countries in the name of multiculturalism has been to allow Muslim schools. Of course they did not have much choice because they already had Christian schools of one kind or another and they could not be seen as discriminating. The right thing to do would have been to ban all faith based schools and enforce a strictly secular educational system.
Ahmad says that the only hope for Iran is to become secular. Well, good luck with that.
Kemal Ataturk hated every mullah in his country and took every possible step to make sure that Turkey was going to be a secular state yet Turkey still calls itself a Muslim country and its ruling party has a strong religious agenda.
Ahmad’s brief history lesson about Iran mirrors the history of the Christian church which acquired its great power the day that Justinian, Emperor of the Western Roman Empire in Byzantium, decided to make Christianity the one and only state religion.
It was not religious zeal that motivated him rather the calculation that having a grateful clergy controlling the mind of the people was a damn good idea.
There are Arab states, like Syria, Egypt and Algeria, that call themselves secular. Unfortunately they are all dictatorships.
A dictatorship is no different from a theocratic state; they both want to make sure that the freedoms of their people remain strictly within the limits that the state allows. By repressing the aspirations of their own people they drive many of them into the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood or similar groups.
Unfortunately centuries of brainwashing still make people believe that when they are wronged the so called “Divine Justice” will do more for them than the rational “Natural Justice”.
Excuse my rant; I find it difficult to cut it short.
There was hope for a while that the Iranian people, by coming out in the streets in their hundred of thousands, had found their voice and their call for freedom and justice was going to prevail.
That hope is now gone and there will be tough times ahead.
The clerical establishment and the Revolutionary Guards control the whole Iranian economy and have no wish to give that up.
That is what “Divine Justice” really is : power and money.
Alberto
June 28th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Dear Clarence
I find it incredible that there are still people like you who, like they did in the Middle Ages, talk of true versus false religion.
All religions are nothing but fantasies for grown-ups who prefer to believe in an undemonstrable metaphysical reality rather than the reality of their senses.
Remember, you do not need any god to be a good and caring person.
You only need to follow one commandment ” Do not do onto others what you do not want done onto yourself “
June 29th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Alberto: I consider it an honor for you to critisize me and hundreds of millions of christians of like precious faith across the boundaries of the world without end; I had a supernatural conversion at the age of 42, that day I will never forget, I know that other real true christians has a similar testimony, I sense with your remark that you are of course an atheist, they make the best witnesses once they are converted, CS Lewis was one of them, plenty of reasons to believe in a God who really cares about the people he created in a world of Godless abandon and violence, none of us are good, it takes Jesus Christ to make us what God calls good, your opinion of it does not matter, we lie, we steal, we cheat, we commit adultry, immoral acts, evil thoughts, even murder, time has no bearing as to the condition of man, God does not live in a sphere of time as we know it, and if you are relating to intelligence or how smart thou art, we get wisdom, knowledge and understanding all in one
when we know Jesus as lord and savior of our lives; hope you find him one day soon before it is too late for you. Death does not wait, it stalks humanity at any age, if we know Jesus, that is not a problem for us, we are all going to live forever somewhere,
heaven or hell, you may not believe in either, but your un-belief does not render it non-existent. Wise men still seek him !
June 29th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Dear Clarence
it is true that people do all kind of horrible things and that is why an ethical code is necessary but such code needs not come from a divinity.
The ethical code required can be reduced to one single sentence ” Do not do onto others what you do not want done onto yourself “.
You do not want things be stolen from you, then do not steal.
You want to enjoy the fruits of your labours, then let others enjoy theirs.
You want others to love you, then love others yourself.
And so on and so on. It is all very simple.
However I would like to move onto a little theological issue that may help you to better understand your beliefs.
The definition of God as a loving and caring being is a very old one. The Israelites believed that they were his chosen people.
But how was it that this loving and caring God let his chosen people suffer all the same bad things that afflicted all the other peoples, be these plagues, wars, droughts or sickness.
It was hard to reconcile the notion of a loving and caring God with the fact that even the most pious people might have to endure great suffering.
The thinkers who wrote the Bible finally came up with an answer.
It was all because of the Original Sin. Since Adam and Eve had sinned we are all sinners whether we like it or not and the loving and caring God will take good care of us, yes, but only in the afterlife.
Without the notion of the Original Sin the whole Christian philosophy comes crushing down.
Can we really believe that a newborn baby can carry the stigma of the Original Sin and be a sinner from the moment it is born ?
Can any sensible person really believe that ?
The other attribute you give to the God you believe in is that he is our Savior. I have heard that being said by many people.
Can you tell me what he is supposed to save us from ?
As far as I can see he is not saving us from anything, rather he may be making people lives unnecessarily more complicated.
Just imagine for a moment how much nicer and simpler things would be if there was nobody around calling himself Muslim, Christian or Jew but only people calling themselves just human beings.
Alberto
June 30th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
It’s interesting how many people are talking about the Crusades. Just a quick lesson in history:
When the Christian Crusaders conquered Jersualem, they buthcered every one on the street, raped the women and enslaved the children. Not much different than what they did in the Americas, Africa, Australia or Asia, many years later when they conquered these areas as colonialists, all in the name of Christ.
When Salah ud Din Ayubi took back the city, he did not want to shed blood in Jerusalem, it being holy, so when he destroyed the crusader army at Hittin, he told them to leave their settlements in a few months, gave them access to their holy sites afterwards even though he could have chosen revenge and killed all Christian franks at the time. He chose not to because Islam honors the sacredness of life.
Funny, I don’t recall us forcing conversions onto people either when we ruled. It took Syria 600 years to become majority muslim, And parts of Syria were still majority Christian in the 1900’s such as Lebanon. If we were just so cruel as you guys think we are, then why the hell is our history not so messed up as yours?
And it’s a point to note than even now when you guys got the chance to do so, you supported the Zionists to come to power in Israel. They ethnically cleansed the area of Israel in 1948, destroying 400 of the 500 villages in that area and killing most of the Palestinains who decided not to flee. Funny, that European and American Christians supported this massacre directly giving Israel arms. Funny how history repeats itself…
As far as the bible being all peaceful, I would like people to actually go read the bible starting from Genesis. The Jews killing all the Philistines in that area because they are the chosen race, not subjugate, freaking kill them. And it is there in your bible that these Philistines were not even interested in fighting the Jews, they were peacefully living in that area. There is so much blood that the Jews take that I am surprised that you Christians can claim that the Bible is peaceful.
Christ himself says that I have not come to bring peace, rather I have come to bring the sword, and he who does not have a sword then let him go sell all his property and get one. I realize that Jesus also taks about peace, but he is not referring to the gentiles. He calls gentiles swine and dogs.
Dont give me the crap about Muhammad fighting the wars in Arabia, those were existential threats his community faced, which he had to deal with. Islam allows fighting with people if they attack you or have an intention to, but god says in Surah Anfal, that if they incline towards peace, then you better make peace as well oh muslims. Or else, you are breaking the commandment.
And let it be known, that this makes the most sense to me, for what are we supposed to do when people attack us from the outside, sit down and bend over? No, it is because we have fought when crusaders have attacked and Mongols and etc, that our religion is still alive. We fight because we are existentially threatened. We don’t fight for converts, money or glory. And if we have on certain occasions in history, we have done wrong. How is it that Indonesia, the largest Muslim country is muslim? It is because we went their peacefully and converted them. Give us the right to do that and we will. But when our numbers swell in Europe peacefully, I might add, your Christian population gets worried and starts creating mythical problems about how we aren’t so European or British. What a load of crap, as if a religious entity like Islam spread all over the world, can’t adjust to different cultures.
And by the way, the taliban bastards that we have to fight today were created, trained and used by your government. Before, you guys created the virus that we have to fight today, concepts like suicide bombings were foreign to islam. Good job!
June 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
What it is, is simply that, people are scared of things which are not similar to them. So you guys cry about our honor killings back at home all the while conveniently forgetting that during your times of peace, your rate of homicide per population is at least an order of magintude higher that anywhere back home when we have had peace. We might as well conclude that your society creates a propensity for being bloodthirsty, huh?
June 30th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
And as for all you Christians who say that your God is peaceful, and our God isn’t, I invite them to go read our Quran. Not only is this dicussion panel extremely ignorant about the truth of Islam, it is also very derogatory towards it. Perhaps you should also read our history before you guys make any further comments.
And as for you atheists who claim that religions are nonsensical, you should probably read our book before you can project that on the basis of original sin, atonement, and other theological problems specific only to Christianity, all religions including Islam are illogical. We do not have those problems.
June 30th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
I never read so many misinformed comments in one place in my entire web surfing life!
June 30th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
I want to express to all, I do not hate or despise any of you, I love all of God’s creation, but I don’t have to agree with them with whom I have differences, God himself gives you freewill to serve him or not; but one question begs to be answered; do you feel you can die with your faith and or your lack of faith in Jesus Christ ? He himself stated: I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father, but through me. John 14:6 to argue about one’s belief is a futile thing, dialogue I like, arguing I don’t. The bible also states: follow peace with all men and holiness, without which, no man shall see the lord, we can’t help our history, but we don’t have to repeat it, I plan for heaven to be my home and my family, and my life has to be a carbon copy of Jesus Christ or it will be lived in vain. God Bless.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
As a proud Muslim apostate I must say that you are up to something, and I enjoyed reading this article. Those we incessantly deragoratorily compare Christianity to islam are ignorant of the fact that Christianity has been reformed.
And those who compare 700 year old Christian atrocity to an Islamic atrocity and tragedy today, have no moral standing either as they have got it all wrong: it is the present that is important and you cannot justify the present by pointing to some historucal atrocity in the distant past, such as colonialism.
And the Muslims, massacred 100 million Hindus at the time of their invasion of India. This is by far larger than WWII and is the single most atrocious event in history.
Those postmodern reactionaries that defend Islam should study the Koran and Hadith and Sunnat and discover for themselves the criminal who called himself Prophet Mohammed.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Christianity prospered in ancient Rome because ruling class discovered that unlike Jews, who constantly rebelled,Christians were a submissive lot (..render onto Caesar what’s Caesars.. etc). Eventually it made Christianity a state religion. Christians, now in posession of the rein of power declared Judaism as enemy of Christianity and antisemitism took root and intensified
Wars were conducted viciously in the name of the spread of the Word of God. It did not hurt that the kings appointed by the Church and the Church itself got richer. Ideas of rights, justice, equality and the rule of law in place of autocracy started emerging and intensifying during Enlightment of the 18th century culminatiing in the declarations or rights of man and French and American constitutions. That is not to say that it took root immediately. America fought a Civil war and full rights is an ongoing process.
Islam started with a philosophy based on and similar to Judaism. Muhammad offered the Jewish community in Jedda to join his movement. Spurned, he too declared Jews to be subservient. Both Christianity and Islam significantly enlarged their holdings on earth not through nobility of their message but through the force of arms The true motivation had to be to increase wealth and influence.
Currently, the West, under the influence of the teachings of Enligthment (and Judaism’s concept of Tikun Olam) acknowledge the right to coexistence between peoples.
Islam, which never allowed a movement like Enlightment to flourish, is still in the grip of either absolute rulers who hold on to power by force or by religious fanatics who cling to the idea of supremacy. Bringing democracy does not produce the desired effect of introduction of the rule of law. Free elections in Palestine, Lebanon put power in the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah, who, like the Nazi party in the 1930s could not be voted out of power by the ballot.
Peace in the world requires the Moslems to accept the concept of live and let live. Accepting such concepts must start at the mosques (which by and large still teach intolerance) Only when the message of tolerance takes root witll the internecine fighting between Moslem sects stop. Perhaps, at that point the Moslems will accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland (current Arab peace plans with right or return true agenda is to overwhelm the Jewish presence demographically and reestablishement of domination
July 1st, 2009 at 9:36 am
Dear Arnold
you could not have said it better.
However I would like to add that until important Muslim countries such as Syria and Egypt are in the grip of dictatorships and the people cannot enjoy economic freedom and freedom of expression the Mosques will continue teaching intolerance of the West as the supporter of the dictatorship as in the case of Egypt or as the enemy of the country as in the case of Syria.
Alberto
July 1st, 2009 at 12:34 pm
To clarence puckett: yeah i love you too, for being human and then for being christian. however, like you can’t accept my religionto be the right way, I don’t accept your religion to be the truth or your savior to be God. To me, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, but he is not God, can never be God, and will never be God, but a honored Prophet.
To Mohsen: I can’t really believe that you are a Muslim apostate, so few of the members of our religion go to apostasy that this is hard for me to believe. Either way, your conclusions are necessarily wrong. Colonialism has not ended, it continues. Blood is continously shed in Iraq, Afganistan and Palestine. I am not interested in killing people but why is it that nearly all western governments, mostly christian, condone the violence happening in these regions. Reformed christianity, my ass. By historical past, do you mean 50 years ago, 100 years ago or 200 years ago. Because just a 100 years ago, colonialism was still there: a not so distant past. Also, most colonialism started after the reformation of the Christian religion so all your arguments are trash. When it became economically difficult to colonize our lands, the Europeans left. At that time, they had already taken everything. And if what you say of India is true, why is it that we ruled India for 700 yrs and then when we gave it up it is 83% hindu. There have been moments of violence in India where we screwed up, but this violence was sporadic, timurlane (mongol bastard), aurangzeb, etc. Otherwise, it was an era of tolerance, which is why india is still hindu and not muslim.
To Arnold: Do you notice how ignorantly, you claim in the end that Christianity and Judaism have this concept of live and let live and Islam doesn’t? Do you understand that Christians have lived in Syria for almost 800 years, and we have let them live there and that it took 600 years for us even to establish a majority presence in most of our lands. What the hell are you talking about? Elections in Palestine result in Hamas and Hezbullah winning because the people of PAlestine have been wrongfully evicted out of their homes in 1948 by Israeli forces. They are willing to accept a 78% to 22% land allocation in favor of the jews although in 1948 they were over two-thirds of the population in that area. What does Israel do? Enlarge its own settlements, bomb refugee camps (Gaza) and unnecessarily fight its neighbors (Lebanon). Who is to blame for not being able to live and let live then?
To Alberto: Yeah, and by the way, the dictator in Egypt is supported by all your governments, USA, UK etc. Ironic, isn’t it?
July 1st, 2009 at 2:46 pm
And by the way Arnold, it is not Jedda, it is Madina or Yathrib. You arrogance in assuming you even know anything about my history surprises me. Muhammad never went to Jedda, he went to Madinah. It is stuff like this that is a clear indicator to me that you have no clue what you are talking about.
July 1st, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Dear Saad,
can’t you see how pointless it is to keep on talking about Christians having wronged Muslims or Muslims having done bad things to Christians ?
It has always been just a power play with religion being only a fig leaf.
Most of the Crusaders went to the “Holy Land” in the hope of getting rich because the pope was telling them that killing Muslims and taking their property was their christian duty.
It is perfectly true that Muslims have always been very tolerant of other religions. After the expulsion of the Arabs from Spain in the fifteenth century where did most of the Spanish Jews, who were expelled soon afterward, go ? To Muslim lands where they were readily accepted. A few went to the Netherlands which was the most liberal European country at the time.
I wouldn’t call it ironic the support that the US and its Western allies give to Egypt; I rather call it a crime against the Egyptian people.
My point is that as long as the issue of religion obfuscates the actual geopolitical power play a rational and more just approach to solving power and political issues will not be possible.
The mullahs in Iran want to stay in power not because they believe that they must give moral guidance to the people but because they control most of the economy and get rich in the process. Money, it is always power and money.
Just reflect for a moment on this snippet of information :
10 per cent of the people on this planet control 60 per cent of the planet’s resources. And they can mobilize armies to maintain their control. Mad dog Dick Cheney tried to do just that with the Iraqi oil.
So be sensible : keep religion to yourself and never bring it in the political arena. Remember that the best use of history is as a tool to keep us from repeating the mistakes of the past.
Alberto
July 1st, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Saad: I hate to disapoint you, but you stated so few went apostate from Islam, how about millions a year, six million a year in Africa alone, you ever heard of dr.ergan and dr.emir caner ? Google their name and enlighten yourself and the website you pull up when you google their names, this issue is not new with me, I have been a christian for thirty years and have studied about Islam and met former muslims who were rejected by their own parents like the caner brothers, both doctors and professers, one at liberty university, I was born in a christian family, but that did not make me a christian, I had to have my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ, my mother’s faith would not be sufficient to get me to heaven, we have people in our church who were muslim and we have muslims all over the world who e-mail our church wanting to know this Jesus we preach about, because they know him as only a prophet, if that is all Jesus is or was, then he could not save anyone from their sins or heal them or be the messiah, which means annointed one of God, he was God’s word made flesh, the word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:1 Jesus was born of a virgin,
he was without sin[unlike all other human beings] you can’t go to heaven without him. If and when you decide to google their names; it will say homepage 3, and palestinians coming to Christ.
I had a spiritual conversion when my life was changed by the power of God[august 26th 1979] you spoke of mohammed and the two places he frequented, really mecca and medina. These men I told you about have a very powerfull testimony, very highly respected in America, I don’t like to dwell on the former violence in the past, alot of the people who called themselves christians were not christians, they spoke of Christ, but in their hearts they were far from him, even today, I try to help people, because I have alot of experience myself, having been an elder in my church and usher, teacher, pastor’s council, if I see someone would rather continue to argue, I bow out and leave them alone, I don’t like to waste the lord’s time or mine either, there are too many people out in the world who want to know the absolute truth than to waste alot of time with someone who rejects it continually, when I debate, I don’t get mad, I know alot of people don’t accept the things of God, we live in a Godless world, the first world was destroyed by two words “violence and corruption” God decided it was time to deal with it and so sent the flood, next time, it will be with fire.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Alberto: I probably owe you a couple of answers or two; you said what does God save us from ? Well we happen to inherit Adam’s sin nature and therefore need a savior to save us from original sin, Jesus was God’s holy word manifested or revealed in human flesh, therefore God incarnate, he was virgin born and sinless, he was God’s lamb sacrificed for all mankind; John 3:16 says it all ” For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever beliefeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, God is not the ogre most people depict him to be, his grace and mercy far exceeds ours, he is a God of love, Israel is his called out chosen ones[a small people] they departed and disobeyed him many times and of course he had to
punish them, he is love, but he is a God of judgement also if his love is not responded to in obedience, he held Israel to a high standard in the OT, it has the good, the bad and the ugly parts in it. Jesus represents the new covenant, he gave his life for a sinfull world, but he rose again the third day[victory] he sits on the right hand of God right now[Psalm 110] humans can’t really make themselves what we call good, in our sight it is, in God’s, it is not, God said: there is none righteous, no not one, so that is why Jesus came to redeem fallen mankind and make him a new creature, he made me one and millions like me across the world, I
was 42 when it occured to me, new life was given and the old was gone, my interests were new, ambitions were ignited, nothing is impossible to me anymore, God has proved himself to me many times.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Wow what an ignorant, misinformed article. I won’t argue with you Sir except to say that you are a typical, deluded Christian-what do you guys say, oh yeah “Onward Christian Soldier”
July 1st, 2009 at 9:26 pm
The writer seems to be completely pejudice and hateful. I would not go in details, but give some hints:
1) Forgot white christian cruisaders from Europe attacking Spain. They even killed ‘yellow color spanish christians’ believing only white is Christian. Even Poe came Spain and ooferedhighest ticket sale to whome who performs the most torture to Muslims.
2) Christians ran away from Europe (catholic vs Protestants), and killed thousands American Indians and posessedlands etc. Is that Christianity???? Is this West is all about???
3) Problems in Middle East created by WEST/Christian for Oil??? Is this what proud WEST is all about?? Iraq millions killed, 850,000 women widow…is this what Christianity and WEST is all about. Where is everyone who says in Church: “Though shall not kill”. Jihads are started recently because of WEST robbing Natural Resources from East countries. Next is Africa to be robbed by WEST, you will see it soon!!!!
4) Palstine was Arab’s land. WEST and christian where poor Jesus was born, Bethlehem. Westerns even stole Mid Eastern Isa and gave him a new name: “Jesus Christ”. He died as Jew, but then some European Jews and Roman Politicians started new religion Chatholicism after ceturie Jesus was gone. Converted Pagonism into Holy thing. Jesus owas Mid Eastern with turbun on his head and scarfon his mothers head. But now we dont like people of same land where Jesus came from, who still ware turben and scarf like those days. But WEST has converted Isa/ Jesus into their own style for thei own pleasure. Permitting all doings whereas Christe had prohibited!!!
5) Westrns stole Palasinees land everyday—what is happening in Ghaza today isthat Eastern? Dont isolkate Jew from WESTERN- Jewish is really a Westerns as dresses and lives like Western. He was supposed to be like Arabs and all those prophets came before Jesus. But they changed!!!
BRIEFLY—–its not the Question of East and West, I believe West has become arrogant and godly because of Scientific progress but HE is still far away from his CREATOR!!! and this would be damaging somedy!!!
THANKS- write me back anyone- shall be happy to respond
3)
July 1st, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Dear Clarence
I find it incredible that anyone can believe that a newborn baby comes into this world as sinner from the start.
Of course if you wish to believe that there is nothing much I can say.
However it might be of interest to you to know that the ancient Egyptians, millennia before Jesus, venerated as one of their main gods the god Horus.
It is remarkable that the myth of Horus is identical to that of Jesus.
Horus was believed to be the son of god born in the flesh to a virgin woman. He had come to earth to redeem mankind.
He was crucified and died but was resurrected and ascended to heaven to be a god on the side of the main god.
His mother also ascended to heaven and became a goddess.
The mythology surrounding many other ancient gods like Mithra, Dionysus and Vishnu is pretty much the same.
Don’t you find it odd that the story is always the same ?
It gives me the impression that St. Paul just repackaged the story of Horus and sold it again. He was obviously rather successful.
Please check these facts by yourself.
Alberto
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 am
To Alberto: I absolutely agree with everything you said in the last post where you addressed me. My only issue with you was when you agreed to what Arnold said in the post where he concluded that us Muslims could not live and let live, and you agreed with him. But, I take it that you either retracted that aspect of your agreement or something? By the way, I absolutely agree with you: I don’t consider original sin to be very rational, and it definitely does seem like Paul repackaged the story of ancient pagan stories to attract a larger audience.
To Clarence: See Clarence, here you go again. The fact of the matter is that the 6 million figure is bogus. A cleric (muslim) from Algeria was trying to fundraise money from the gulf countries and to scare them of missionary threat, he used these numbers. They are bogus. I would like to see some serious studies by respected institutions producing these numbers. In Africa, most of your priests will tell you that islam is converting far more people as is the case in america and europe and wherever it is. While these comments are far more widespread, this can’t be trusted either. By the way, the number of Christians, and for me this is a tragedy, have gradually been shrinking in the middle east either due to conversions, intermarriages, or because they migrate out. I think if you look at the numbers, you will see that the population percentage of Christians in Palestine has been shrinking. Point of notice: you can’t trust authorities who have an interest or an agenda on that will be affected by the actual statistics.
Regarding your statement, ‘if that is all Jesus is or was [a prophet], then he could not save anyone from their sins or heal them or be the messiah, which means annointed one of God, he was God’s word made flesh, the word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:1 Jesus was born of a virgin,
he was without sin[unlike all other human beings] you can’t go to heaven without him.’
Clarence, I think you have to look at the facts: you are quoting the bible, but you should know then, that the porphets of the old testament also performed miracles, healing people and in the sense that they were chosen by God to be the Prophets, they are all anointed. I believe in Jesus’s virgin birth as is required by my religion, but why is that he has to be God, what about Adam who was born without mother or father. Jesus was the way to God, as all Prophets of their times are ways to God.
Look Clarence, the Quran is very clear about making clear to us Muslims that the closest ones to us are you Christians. We are the only other religion that makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus Christ, the only other religion. Look really, Clarence, there is not much we disagree on as Muslims and Christians except the divinity of Christ. We regard him as a prophet, and you guys regard him as God. That is the biggest difference, and having read the bible, I don’t understand how you guys can claim his Godhood. Does Jesus Christ tell you in no uncertain terms that he is God? No…or not atleast what I could find, Rather he says, in John ‘The Father is greater than all’ and later in John ‘The Father is greater than I’. Imagine that, Jesus tells you that the Father, God, is greater than Jesus. How is it that you put him at the same level as God then or make him God. Jesus says ‘of that hour knows no man except the Father in heaven, no not even I.’ So there are things that God knows that Jesus doesn’t. From my own reading of the bible, I don’t see how Jesus can be placed at the level of God, because God is infinite in his greatness and knowledge and Jesus isn’t by his own admittance.
There are ofcourse other theological issues that our religions disagree upon: original sin, the status of clerics, etc. and we should definitely have conversations about these things as well.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
WE need new world without religions and governments. WE need new syle of education, we need science and high technologies working for us.. We need to live in harmony with Mother Earth, we need to wake up after these thousand years of inhumanity…Till then we just destroying ourselves
the answer is ZEITGEIST . Peace and prosperity.
john terra
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Sorry John Terra, I don’t agree with your analysis. A world without religion is a world without morality, because religion is what created morality. Take away religion and people will kill themselves in far more abundance than they already are. The wars being fought right now aren’t being fought for religion but rather for land and resorces. Religion isn’t the problem, it is the solution.
By the way, why would you go away with God when there are so many good arguments for having one? I find it only logical that God must exist.
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
But I think, that is a completely different topic which will be disgressing from the topic.
I just want to say that the author of the above article is completely disrespectful towards islam and deeply misinformed.
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Alberto: Let us go a little further and say that Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus was likewise a sinner at her birth[thanks to old adam and eve] this curse was passed to all who were ever born after them, now the catholics say otherwise, the very savior Mary bore as a virgin, she needed redemption from herself; when God says all have sinned; he means everyone ever; now about babies, even though they are born in sin, they are innocent, there is an age of accountablility known only to God; his call. He does not send innocent children to hell, he holds us all accountable for what we know about the truth of the Godhead, God the father, God the son, God the holy spirit and the bible says these three are one in essence. 1st John 5:7
We are made in his image; body, soul, spirit, but one person, when the anti-christ takes control of planet earth, it will be a trinity of evil; anti-christ, false prophet, beast[computerized resemblence or idol of the anti-christ] the devil is the author of deception and false religions, but you may not believe that he even exists, and he is elated you feel that way, when I see what is happening in our crazy mixed up world and the direction it is headed, one world govt., religion, one world church, the bible
becomes more real than ever before; I may be talking way over your head right ? G-8 meetings are about subjects like that and having a one world currency, with trillions thrown at our perplexed finances all over the world and none of the problems solved anywhere, the stage is set for the world’s answer man;
the anti-christ, he will solve all the problems temporarily and bring peace for awhile, but it will not last, if you think the world is not gearing up for Armageddon, you must be asleep
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Dear Saad
my view is that religion has always been the problem and never the solution.
The very moment that a person says : I believe in this God and he is the only true God, this same person also says anyone who does not believe in my God is a lesser person who believes in a falsehood. And the end result of this logic is : I am the good guy and he is the bad guy. Religion divides people instead of uniting them. And it goes further than that.
Look at the Christians. You have the Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Methodists, the Evangelicals and maybe a few more. Isn’t it just a joke ?
You are lucky that you have only Sunnis and Shiites. They both say ” Allah is great ” yet they often kill each other.
What kind of moral guidance is their religion giving to them ?
A very poor one, it seems to me.
That is why I take a strong issue with your statement that without religion there is no morality. There is a natural morality that I mentioned in a previous posting ; it is very simple and it goes like this : ” Do not do onto others what you do not want done onto yourself “.
This is all you need for moral guidance and for a peaceful society. You do not need the Bible nor the Quran, you only need this simple principle.
How can it be logical to believe in God ? How can it be logical to believe in something you have never seen or heard, something of which there is no proof that our senses can perceive.
How can it be logical to believe in something only because somebody told you that you should.
Received wisdom must be questioned if you want to be honest to yourself.
Alberto
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Saad: did you pull up the websites I told you about ? That one has a program in which John Ankerburg is interviewing the two brothers[Caner Brothers] they give their testimony of being raised a muslim and booted out of their family and home by their father, many others on there. God sent Jesus to be born into this world as a babe in a manger by a virgin[Mary] to us it is the incarnation of God, Jesus was both fully God and man, attributes of both deity and human, walked on water, raised the dead many times, healed the sick, lepors, blind, lame, demon possessed, he cast them out, what infuriated the evil religious men of his time is when he said the words” I am”, he meant he was God also and they tried many times to kill him, his time was not until he had fulfilled all the old testament prophecy about him, then he laid his life down and of course he raised it up the third day[can't kill God] 1st Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest[revealed] in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels,preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory”. that
scripture denotes none other than Jesus Christ, because God the Father is a spirit[Holy Spirit] Jesus just didn’t come into the world 2000 years ago, he is also from everlasting, read his prayer in John 17 before he went to the cross, he was the fourth man in the firey furnace in the book of Daniel[OT]. it is hard to explain spiritual things to people who differs in theology, and if the bible is not the word of God, then we have no word of God on this earth, I know you take exception to that, but be honest with yourself and check out that site if you hadn’t, people mock the things of God and say off base things about them, but one day soon; a man is going to take control of planet earth and he is going to demand all bow to him and call him god and take his mark to buy or sell or exist, I am glad I will not be here for him, Jesus is coming again and will catch away his bride, the church, not a bldg or the vatican, but all born again believers across the world.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:49 pm
wow..i cant believe i actually sat down and read this crap!!!!..bro, you really are twisted..i should have stopped right from the beginning, when you state that the founder of islam was a warrior…just to let you know, adam was the first muslim, so was moses, so was jesus…but anyways thats another story..and those who commented on this..you too are as ignorant as the writer of this blog..no wonder the world makes fun of you people for being naive and ignorant..anyways you guys are so misinformed..continue to watch your idiot box..even the great frank zappa wrote a song” im the slime” ref to the shit that comes on tv…just for the record..there in no passage in the koran that states killing innocent..but then again you guys are all scholars, i mean you understadn the arabic language, so therfore YOU must know the koran..so there fore LET ME take a stab towards the holy bible…and there ARE SOM MANY PASSAGES that clearly outlines hatred, killing, raping, etc and other henious acts towards the innocent..and the same goes for the talmud and the torah..but then again you gusy are scholars that have dedicated your lives to research so YOU must knwo all…your all a bunch of hypocrites…as you say that your religion is a more peaceful than my faith, then explain this..and i can provide more..because even you gusy dont know your bible..so here we go jesus, who we MUSLIMS LOVE AND RESPECT, states this in a book created by man and not by god, because the jesus that we muslims know would never say this, however when it come to pointing things out explain this
Luke 19:27 says:
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
so those who didnt beleive in jesus were later slayed..so therfore jesus was also a WARRIOR…may allah forgive me for saying this…im SHOWING you all that even in your holy texts there are so many passages showing similar texts..can someone explain too me how is it that jesus is not a warrior and muhamma d was??/
and for those who dont understand GOD .OR ISLAM OR RELIGION..dont blame GOD or ISLAM blame human beings all over..its like saying this..your mom tells you not to lie, steal, fight, etc..but we all were young and dumb and we all disobeyed our parents..does that mean GOD made me or why wasnt he around when i stole a 5 cent chewing gum for mr sullivans grocery store..???..come on guys, we all are weak and its not religion.this is why out faith in allah and out prayers and our self jihad can only defeat our temptations etc..no one is going to come and help us..only WE have to help ourselves and this is y we turn to the koran and prayers for guidance and forgiveness..just like i run back to my mother when i was young and asked her for forgiveness when i stole that candy….we human have to take reposnbility GOD is not going to come down here and tell us, he already laid it out..if we want to follow good..if we dont then we will face the consequences…there are good and bad people from all walks of life..damn you people are ignornat and cant see it!!
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:59 am
There is a very simple way to stop the Clash of CIvilisations, Western powers should stop using military intervention in the Arab world. You pretend that if Muslims could find a peaceful voice of reason everything would be okay, because you are deluded into thinking that there are a group of fanatics out there that are willing to kill anyone who isnt Muslim, and will not pay them protection money. No such group exists. Terrorism is a natural response to imperialism. THis has always been the case. WHether it is the Zulus in South Africa, the Aboriginals in North America, the Palestinians in the Middle East, or the “insurgents” in Iraq, its the same story. No philiosphy will make the injustices of the American Empire any less painful, or inflammotory. If we want peace, then what the US needs is a JFK, and what the Muslims need is a Gandhi.
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:07 am
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
what is a dermalutenist ?
Alberto
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Though I disagree with a lot this article says, the arguement that a lack of intellectual freedom is the root of the problem is a sound one.
It’s not a matter of secular versus religious thinking, and certainly not a case of one religion being superior to another in ability to promote peace, but rather a problem with fanaticism and ideology in general. Christianity led men on crusades, not just against muslims, but against other pagans and heretical christians. The cause of spreading christianity justified the worst of Europe’s colonial adventures. The Islamic conquests were just that, conquests. You can argue all you want that the prophet only fought in self defense, but barely a century after his death, Islamic armies ruled from Spain to western India. Draw your own conclusions.
There are of course secular fanatics as well, no less guilty of murder, hatred, bigotry and destruction. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are obvious examples, but even then, how many millions died in Europe’s wars of national unification and national rivalry, fighting in the name of chauvanistic pride?
Any system which demands belief without encouraging, or perhaps even forbidding, one to question is bad. Any belief which makes one person see another as something different is a belief that holds us all back. Trying to argue christianity over islam is silly, they both stifle thought, deny truth, and while they might bring their faithful closer together, they divide everybody else out.
This idea that religion is needed to guarantee morality is insane. I have no faith myself, and you’ll have trouble finding anybody who would say I have intentionally done them wrong. I fear no damnnation for my transgressions, and expect no reward for my charity, and yet I still manage to live a moral life. You will NEVER hear of a secular humanist blowing himself up on a bus. The threat of eternal damnation is nothing compared to the thought of simply ceasing to be. On the other hand I know dozens of religious people who have become estranged from family members for the simple crime of loving somebody inappropriate, or disowned by their parents for being homosexual, even though such feelings are nothing they can control, and acting upon them harms nobody.
What this world needs, (and not just the Islamic world, as the author suggests) is to stop and think. Anything which promotes peace, cooperation and creativity ought to be kept, and anything which divides people, demands they suppress reason or unquestioningly follow dogma ought to be discarded.
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
To Alberto:
You wrote, “How can it be logical to believe in God ? How can it be logical to believe in something you have never seen or heard, something of which there is no proof that our senses can perceive. How can it be logical to believe in something only because somebody told you that you should. Received wisdom must be questioned if you want to be honest to yourself.”
And Alberto, I completely agree with you that recieved wisdom must be questioned, it is completely illogical to follow blindly what your father followed before because he may very well have been wrong or misguided. But there are little arguments, simple ones, that you will admit do prove the existence of something (which we call God).
In physics, we have a bunch of basic phenomenon that all our theories follow depending on what sort of theorems we are using: If we leave out string theory, they are causality, and a finite space time (possibility of determinism), and if we use string theory to unify our theorems, they are causality and determinism (pssibility of a finite space time).
Causality is the principle that the nature of space at a certain point in time is related to the nature of space at a previous or forward point of time through some physical laws: gravity, etc. However, if our universe is finite in time and space which is a consequence of the big bang, unless you interject string theory, you get a universe that just starts all by itself all of a sudden for no apparent reason, the big bang. This is impossible without some sort of God (in this case a being not bound by time).
Determinism implies that outcomes are well known if the initial conditions and physical laws are known; there is only one allowed possibillity for the each and every state if the initial condition is known. If determinism and causality are used than that means that yes, the universe could have existed for infinite time although it certainly gives me aheadache to think about that, but that all the states of the universe at each point in time are known. Basically, the universe will follow a well determined course of states through time, its evolution is well known.
Now the universe could very well have been in any possible state, for example, at each point in time it could have had another electron swirling around somewhere. There are an infinite number of possible course of states that the universe could have followed, however it is going to follow only one possible course which cannot randomly happen (unless it swings between all infinite states in a defined course, which entropy rules out because the universe has some reactions which are irreversible). This course is then determined by something from before infinite time, there is something, someone who determines this outcome to follow a certain course through time and that is God.
You see Alberto, there numerous physical arguments I can present (I am a physicist) that show the need for a being not bound in time and that forces this rule of determininsm. That being we call Him God.
The above argument does not say which religion is right or wrong, I just meant to show you that some sort of God does exist. I would agree with you that certain religions get ruled out because they simply don’t make sense in the light of science. Christianity and its absurd evolution of the univers in 6 days is one of those religions, but unless Alberto you widen your horizons, you can’t say the same about islam, while being fair atleast for you have no knowledge of it.
To Clarence: See this is the problem Clarence. You can claim anything you want, and in Africa, I have no way of knowing whether or whether not the video is just up to bring to question the fact that not many muslims convert out of islam, or whether it is true. Regardless, two people says nothing about 6 million supposed people converting. Just go on youtube and type up muslim converts and you will get many more videos of christians converting to islam, but it says nothing about the actual numbers.
Regardless, the issue is this Clarence. You are not telling me why my reading of the bible is wrong, that Jesus Christ never proclaimed Godhood. I don’t want your ministers or Paul telling me Jesus is God, I want Jesus himself to say that he is God. And the man does not do it. He says in John, The Father is greater than I. Jesus himself is saying that God, the Father, is greater than himself, by his own admittance. By very nature, God is all knowledgable, Jesus says “Of that Hour knows no man, no not evn I, but the Father in heaven.” Jesus is not knowledgable, God is. By the way, The Timothy verse that you quoted, in the Revised edition, the word is changed from God to devotion.
“Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.” Basically, your shepherds are leading you cattle astray.
I want you to explain to me a muslim why I should believe that Jesus is God. I honor him as a Prophet but you’re telling me he is God. And to me God does not die for three days, and God does not need to die at all to forgive us of our sins. So tell me, why when Jesus never says he is God do you guys take him to be one?
By the way, you spoke about the Bible being from God, I offer you something better, the Quran, it makes much more sense and is filled with less irrationalities.
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Frontsoldat: I am ignorant, deluded, misinformed, typical ? I don’t think the shoe fits me in either of these, I have been a christian for thirty years, I feel I have the wisdom of God, can’t be deluded, i know what and whom I believe in, where I’m at and where I am going[heaven] how so misinformed ? I don’t do trash, I feed my mind good spiritual bible related articles, a mind and soul is too precious to waste, typical ? Not hardly, I have been an elder in two large churches, on both pastor’s councils, taught seniors bible class, usher for about thirty years, outreach director, I am a born again, spirit filled christian, a true conversion, none of this probably impresses you, I am happy as if I had good sense; what about you ? Been married for over 50 years[same lady too] raised four children, have six grand children, three great grand children, had a successful career in the automotive industry[43 years] ran for local politics twice, a US Navy Korean War Veteran, been through alot in life, but I am an overcomer through Jesus Christ who has made me strong in faith in him, what a good life !
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Omar!
Luke 19:27 says:
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
The above were not spoken by Jesus, but by a “certain nobleman”Jesus referred to in the parable that starts on Luke 19:12.
The problem has always been the Koran, that denies women human rights,denies the non- Moslems- the “infidels”- the right to remain so and the Moslems ,except Egypt and Jordan, deny Israel the right to exist .As our planet is getting smaller technologically, we cannot accept any longer the teachings of the Koran that threaten our lives and our way of life, where we can elect our officials ,dress, talk,write,watch movies,sing,in different ways we like ,not the way some Mohammad wrote in a book 1300 years ago that dictates the Moslems have to pay his descendents money!! 8:41
The Moslem terrorism the Islamofscists practice is diverting precious resources from Earth and space exploration!we could have settled on the Moon 4-5 years ago and we could now be preparing for Mars exploration, but we cannot undertake such afantastic endeavor before we achieve peace,tolerance and good will towards ALL our fellow men here on Earth first ,something the moslems refuse to do as they are taught to HATE all non moslems from a very early age
Leonidas
Therefore all religions are to become strictly personal,have no State sponsored religion,and Promote a world government that will uphold human rights everywhere,stop drug trafficking,slavery in everyform,money laundering ,catch abundant clean solar energy for all our needs,stop using polluting petrol ,take care of the environment and fulfill our destiny to colonize our solar system as soon as possible!
We have the technology, but we need peace and universal good will before we embark on that!
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 pm
It is a confusing world ,but for those who want to clarify issues, identify the enemy and enbark on a course to defeat it, there are now just 3 authoritative books one needs to read to achieve that.
1] the koran=recitation-the world conquest by the sword,subjugation and beating of women is there in ..writing!That affects half of the worlds population.Women of the world unite to achieve and preserve your Freedom!
2]”Because they Hate”-and “They must be Stopped”-by Brigitte Gabriel ,which are personal candid accounts of immense suffering by one woman, who lived in Lebanon then in Israel and the US and truly enlightens the reader as to how and why life is so vastly better in Israel and US than in other theocratic, Moslem (=believer)counties ,where society,especially women, are suppressed by the followers of the Koran
leonidas
July 4th, 2009 at 5:30 am
Dear Clarence
put your mind at ease: there is no devil nor any AntiChrist lurking around in the world.
Just read again what you have written about Mary.
You can see by yourself the mental contortions that become necessary to justify all the nonsense about virgin birth, original sin and all the other absurdities trashed around in the Bible.
When you mesh together politics and religion you make a big mistake. There are certainly huge problems in the world but thinking that the AntiChrist is behind the G8 will certainly not help to solve them. Only a rational and honest approach can hopefully solve such problems.
Alberto
July 4th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Dermalutenist:
a compound adjective,
from Gk. derma (gen. dermatos) “skin, hide, leather.” and from O.Fr. lut, from O.Prov. laut, from Arabic al-’ud, the Arabian lute, lit. “the wood” (source of Sp. laud, Port. alaude, It. liuto), where al is the definite article
A skin-flute player.
July 4th, 2009 at 9:35 am
It is a matter of degree ( or percentage) to which religon is used for the purpose of war. While everybody uses all resources to garner troops, religious fervor being one of them, muslims tend to initate war based on religon. They get instigated easily and have been spoiled by the sucess of their earlier religious wars ( think crusades, propogation to East , India, Pakistan and China).
This is therefore a collision of cultures with a violent muslims ( there are some minor muslim sects such as Ismaili and sufi which are non violent but they are a minority ) and rest of the world which morphed into a peace loving society over the last century ( sans Hitler and Stalin but they were megolomaniacs)
July 4th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Brilliant. I hope the author will work in the field of strategic planning.
varaha Escondido, CA July 4, ‘09
July 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I wonder what the author would think about this idea. Buying the Afghan poppy crop for pharmaceutical production. This would allow the Afghan farmers a decent income and deny the Taliban a major source of revenue. varaha
July 4th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
“By the way, you spoke about the Bible being from God, I offer you something better, the Quran, it makes much more sense and is filled with less irrationalities.”
Of course it is filled with fewer irrationalities. The quran is one book, as opposed to the bible which is a collection of many different books written in different times and different places, in different languages, by different peopl,e for different reasons, and collected and finalized centuries later.
But even then, is the quran really all you claim it to be Saad? It did not end up in it’s canonical form until the reign of caliph Uthman, Muhammed’s successor, in the 650’s, and the earliest available independant confirmation of the book’s existence is from the end of the 7th century. Assembled from scraps of writings on animal bones among other sources, is it not logical to assume that there would have been plenty of time for the content of quran to be modified, lost, or degraded over the decades before it was finalized? Also consider the fact that the authorities responsible for this finalization were quite suddenly the rulers of vast territories and populations, the likes of which no arab had known before… a situation that would have been quite alien even to Muhammad himself. Even the traditional source for the life of Muhammad, namely the writings of Ibn Ishaq, was only compiled in the late 760’s, and even then it only survives in a form expanded upon by Ibn Hisham in the 830’s, well over a century and a half after the death of the prophet. To quote Roger Collin’s, a well respected scholar of the period, “… it is contaminated by later pious traditions and the distortions of 8th century orthodoxy. The reader should no more expect to find objective biographical reporting in this and comparable works than he would in the gospels.” Even if you can argue that Muhammad was god’s messenger, a statement for which you can no more objectively prove than I can disprove, (in which case I direct you, as a scientist, to Occam’s razor) you are still relying on writings compiled decades after the fact, by people in a strong, but by no means guaranteed position of power, originally written (or, supposedly, channeled) by a man about which history has very little fully reliable evidence…
I cannot deny that your arguements about causality imply that *something* set our universe in motion, but to immediately jump to the conclusion that this is god in the way that you understand him (and it is ‘him’ in the Abrahamic religions, though assigning a gender to a single supreme being is rather absurd, as male implies a complimentary female, which destroys the concept of monotheism) is contrary in every way to the scientific method, and as a self declared scientist, you ought to be ashamed. Where is the evidence that connects the necessity of an initial cause to that cause being the god which you think revealed himself through Muhammad?
I challenge you to provide me with one shred of objective evidence that either makes that connection. In fact, I’d even be quite impressed if you could explain why your prophets are true messengers of god, while everybody else who has ever preached some sort of divine revelation was simply delusional or had some earthly motive, without falling into a circular arguement by using books which you believe to be divine based on the fact that they were produced by those prophets or their adherents. If you feel like taking a crack at why the creator wouldn’t have just created us with an innate knowledge of his glory, if he intended us to worship him, or at least have sent multiple messengers with the same contradiction free message, or given some other undeniable proof of his wishes, or even existance, I would love to read that too. Good luck. You’ll need it.
July 4th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
An applause for Peter.
I would like to add that the jury is still out on the Big Bang.
It is by no means proven that the Universe had a beginning.
Other theories propose a Universe that has always existed and always will exist. There is a Multiverses theory too.
Even though the Big Bang theory is the one most widely accepted at the moment, the real truth is that we really do not know how the Universe began or even if it ever had a beginning.
Alberto
July 4th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Saad: here is one scripture; others are John 10:30 Jesus said: I and my father are one; John 5:22 for the father judges no man but has appointed all judgement unto the son, that all men should honor the son, even as they honor the father. John 8:58 Jesus in speaking with the scribes and pharisees, stated before Abraham was; I am. I am indicating he was from everlasting to everlasting, in Revelation 3 He states: I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, I am he that was dead, but now alive, he died in the flesh, but in the spirit still lived and descended down to the core of the earth[not hell] to Abraham’s boxom[paradise in the earth] where the OT saints and prophets were kept until after his death on the cross, then ascended up to heaven with them to the father, because without him, they could not go, then in an instant appeared back on earth the third day for his ressurection in his body; defies logic don’t it ? God can do anything, nothing is impossible to him, he made it all, why can’t he do with it whatever he will ? By the way Islam only got it’s start in the sixth century AD, Jesus was God’s word out of his mouth manifest in human flesh, came as a babe in a manger and a virgin[impossible with mankind, but the holy spirit put the seed into mary's womb, no sex involved by joseph or anyone, God's plan all the way, he sent his word in a baby, the evil religious men of those times were not looking for that, had they read and understood the OT, they would have known who the messiah was when he came and how he would be born. Isaiah 7:14 : 9:6.007:014 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God]009:006 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Jesus had many titles; rose of sharon, lily of the valley, bright and morning star, prophet, messiah, the rock of ages, the lion of judah, the lamb of God[sacrifice for sin].
July 4th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
To Peter:
You said that it is logical to assume that there would have been plenty of time for the Quran to be changed. In this Peter, I have to strongly disagree with you. You are ignoring the context. The Quran is a book, unlike any other, it is easily preserved in the hearts of men. The testament to this fact is that the Quran is the only book of such a size that has been memorized by millions of people, (14 million exactly alive today in flesh), word by word, cover to cover. If you know our history, and it seems like you may have an idea, you will also know that many of the companions of the Prophet, most of them had memorized the book. I myself, have memorized a sizable chunk, and it’s not difficult to do so. Nonetheless, the Prophet made it sure that all the revelations were written down on something, and being of meagre means the scribes used meagre things, bones, wood, scraps of papyrus and fur. What was done after the Prophet died was that the book was compiled into one book by Abu Bakr (the first caliph), called Hafsa(wife of the Prophet)’s copy but it was not made standard. Then as you said the third Caliph, Uthman, made it standard in the empire. The first book was compiled after one years of the Prophet’s death, and made standard after 20 years of the Prophet’s death. The context is one where the book was memorized from cover to cover by a majority of the companions, and where the parts of the Quran had been written down on a lot of things. Nonetheless, when it was compiled, it was made sure that all the verses could be found written down somewhere in the houses or in the possession of the scribes of the Prophet. Like you said, the oldest copies, are found from the end of the 7th century. This is not unusual, as history destroys the oldest evidence from earlier that century. The fact is that the oldest evidence of the New Testament, just scraps of paper, not entire books are found 2 to 3 centuries after they were written. Note, that the first entire copy of the Quran is found only 70 years after the Prophet’s death with no issue or contention by anyone that that is the entire copy. It was supposedly recorded only 2 years after the Prophet’s death, and standardized after 20 yrs. The oldest entire copy is 70 yrs after with no issue of contention between sects. Historically Peter, that is quite remarkable and everybody acknowledges it.
The problem with trusting people like Roger Collins is that Collins is an orientalist, and I find that orientalists have distorted images and understanding of islam. Read Edward Said’s (he’s Christian) book on Orientalism.
You are absolutely right, the biography of the Prophet and his seerah might be an issue of quite some contention and what survives of detail has always to be compared to the Quran and if it doesn’t concur with it, then it has to be disregarded, for the Sunnah is a consequence of history. That is why us Sunnis say that if the Sunnah and the Quran contradict in anything, and sometimes they do, because the Sunnah is a product of history, then you ignore the Sunnah and follow the Quran.
Peter, I cannot understand how you can ask me to use Okum’s razor. I quote to you Richard Fineman, who clealry states that you can’t use such concepts like Ocum’s razor to understand science. It is often the case that the simplest way to understand the problem isn’t the right one.
By the way, Muhammad emerged in the full light of history. History has very reliable evidence of Muhammad, the letters he wrote to 17 emperors of his day are preserved today, with his seal on them. The letters date to earlier than 630 when Muhammad was still alive, his seal is on them. Such is not the case of Jesus or any other religious figure.
Peter, I never said that arguments of causality lead to a God of my islamic understanding. The only reason I provided the argument was so that I could convince Alberto that there is a need for an existence of a God. The argument does not clarify a God of my understanding or Christian or Buddhist, but some sort of God is necessary which rules out atheism.
The ‘him’ our religions use is not to assign a gender to God, it is because in Arabic, and I am guessing in Hebrew as well, everything is addressed as a he or she. This is not particular to Arabic, but spanish as well. In all such languages, the male gender is used to address a universal audience, which is why typically the Quran will address the believers as males, but this includes all females as well. If you speak Arabic, you’d understand.
If you want to find evidence of the truth of one of these religions, then you have to go read their books. If these books themselves, don’t try to give you proofs then why should I try to provide one. What I am saying is that the evidence of these religions must be self-contained in their books, and if they don’t have such evidences, then they aren’t very logical. Logic gets you far enough to say that there is a God, he is all-Powerful, Timeless, etc. Since physical phenomenon are unified into single theories, God is one because his laws are one and organized and coordinated. That is how far logic can get you. It rules out polytheism for sure. For there is no God or the air or sea or fire or earth, it is simply the same physical law acting in different circumstances. Then you have to find a religion that is consistent with this logic and provides some proof of its own.
I have read many books of other religions, and none of the other ones try to prove their religion, it has to be assumed to be true, but the Quran tries to give you proof of its own truth. And why should I try to recreate those evidences here when you all could just go read the Quran yourselves?
Go read it if you are interested in the proofs, I will not recreate them here. If you approach the topic with sincerity, you will find God, and understand Him and his message and purpose for creating the world. But if you are here just to argue, then I cannot help you nor am I interested.
to leonidas: it is people like you leonidas that spew hatred towards us because you feel threatened. You misquote our Holy Book as you just did saying that the Quran says to give money to the Prophet’s family, you speak without knowledge and any clear evidence. You should go read your own history and relaize that you guys are the ones who have invaded us to kill us and take our resorces. This is the case in Iraq, for oil, in Palestine for land, and in Afganistan for military bases.
You should look in a mirror before you comment on anybody else. Then maybe when you catch a reflection, you’ll understand.
July 4th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
It seems to me that the previous discussion in this blog over who is arab or persian, is chinese and Muslim is irrelevant. All of them are Muslim first and something else second. They just do not have the same allegiance to their nation, or etchnicity, or race that we do. Furthermore I doubt there is anything such as this blog in any Muslim country. Also their religion, Muslim, and government are the same thing. And recent events in Iran clearly illustrate that you can believe, vote, protest anything you want as long as it is Islamic! Is straight out of the Koran. And it is what the ayatollahs want. Islam is a police state! The Ayatollahs in Iran said it was a sin to protest or some such absurdity. Totally foreign here since here sin is identified by the bible and in churches, not in or by the government. At least not until BO, the prez, not the dog, jumped in with remarks a couple of months ago about how bad we Americans are. The government can only determine what is legal or illegal, they have no power to define what is moral. This is what freeedom of religion does for us. We can think for ourselves. In recent years however DC has become confused about what are rights and DC is so infused with rights they don’t seem to have a moral personal basis. They can, if they were not so confused, realize they can make actions that are moral legal. Instead they are now in the mode of making immoral acts legal, such as abortion, homosexuality, etc.. In the case of same sex unions they claim homosexuals are denied their rights by not being allowed to marry. Well, lots of people/groups can’t marry. Three year olds? People in insane asylum And actually no one has a right to marry. In the eyes of the government it is a privaledge, that is why all they give you is a license. Same as driving a car. If I had the right to marry another person and they refused I could sure them for discrimination. If they had deep pockets, I might actually only be interested in their money, not in marriage and get a nice settlement. Sort of how lawyers file suits against medical entities and so called discrimination law suits. Pax vobiscum! But the war with Islam will prevent this until one side eliminates the other side. A conflaguration in Islam, where the people revolt, and Islam self-destructs seems like the most desirable outcome and brings freedom to the oppressed people in Islam.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Terry!
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the differences of LEGAL to MORAL!You are so right!
Moslem immigration must STOP now in the US if we want to survive !Wth the high birthrate the moslems have in the moslem countries from 4 legal revewable wives and 10-14 children usually per family they will outnumber the rest of us within 2 generations and then SHARIA law will be imposed upon us DEMOCRATICALLY!
July 5th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
To Saad and Clarence.
Between the Bible and the Quran the Quran seems to have a better claim to Holiness than the Bible.
After all the Quran was written (or rather dictated) by one man after his visions of God’s messenger the Archangel Gibreel.
The Bible, on the other hand, was written and rewritten by many people. Could they all claim to be writing God’s words ?
Over the ages countless people have come forward claiming to be speaking the word of God. The leader of the Tai Ping revolt in China in the 1800’s claimed to be son of Jesus Christ.
Of course such claims were all bogus. Whether such claims were made two hundred or three thousand years ago certainly makes no difference.
My question is really this : why should a God be in the business of having books written in his behalf ?
If he is really such an all powerful being like these books say he is, he could certainly imprint his will in the mind of all human beings.
Having books written in his behalf seems a pretty inefficient way of making people abide his will and it has been proven to be failure.
The day that a little common sense like the above will prevail it will be a very good day
July 5th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
To Terry: I implore you to go learn about our history before passing derogatory comments about what islam is or isn’t. If Iran’s ayatoillahs force people to do something, then how was the CIA different when it forced a coup on the democratically elected governemnt of IRan in 1953 to install their own dictator, who was a butcher, Shah Pehlavi into power? I see no evidence to believe that what you say about our religious identity overshadowing our ethnic ones is true in any way.
To Alberto: Again, answering your question would take a really long time. I will anwser it in brief.
According to islam, God gives humans a free will, so that they are responsible for their actions. He gives them all a nature so that they are born Muslims, i.e. their internal nature is one that believes in and submits to one God (definition of Muslim), but their parents, and society corrupt this nature so that the children become Christian or pagan. He also gives them an intellect such that they can use their logic and rationale to find a way back to God. And finally, because we are all failures at achieving what we have the capacity to achieve in life, he sends down revelations that guide us to Him and understanding Him and also moral rules and laws (which mirror what is found in our intrinsic nature).
If you can agree with the first couple of points, then you can easily see that if their is a God, and one God only at that, which is the only logical conclusion we reach from our observation of the universe, then it is only through the blessing of divine revelation that some of us in the course of history, monotheistic religions, have concluded the necessity of this one God to exist. Although if you think about it, if we were perfect human beings we would not need to have divine revelation, but we are not and what more, we are far from rational. What more some people on earth simply don’t have time to come up with or observe the universe. This is precisely where Divine revelation helps these people to come to the guidance and worship of the One God, it guides them to what they would logically conclude if they were perfectly rational.
Thus Divine revelation is but a blessing unto humanity, it guides them to the truth. Islam believes that God sent down many Prophets however, their message was corrupted. For example, we believe that while Jesus Christ initially asked people to worship one God, the priests corrupted his message and made it so that people worship Jesus. This an irrational human tendency to anthromorphize those things that we don’t understand that are far beyond us. So many religions have brought down God, the creator of everything into an anthromorphized understanding. In this Islam is the clear exception.
By the way, I will not be anwsering theological questions anymore, if you are really interested, please go read the Quran before you come to ask me questions about it only meant for wasteful argumentation.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Saad, first let me just say how nice it is to have a debate with a religious person, about religion, that remains so reasonable. It usually just degenerates into insults, condemnation to some eternal punishment, or an endless stream of quotations from a holy book assembled with what seems to be little rhyme or reason. That said, we’ve still got a ways to go here, I think.
Anyway, I have indeed read most of the quran. I am a historian, and it is a book of great historical significance, which led me to explore it for that reason, rather than because of any spiritual curiosity. You say the proof is in the book, but apart from a general coherence lacking in most other holy texts assembled over centuries, there is nothing in there that led me to believe it all that different from any other holy text. There are the usual rules, some justified, others not, the only reasoning being that god finds it unpleasant, as well as an explanation of the nature of god, as always not independantly verifiable, and the nature of the universe, lacking in many of the intricate understandings we now have thanks to scientific inquiry. I will admit I read an english translation, and I hear told I missed out on the poetry of the Arabic, but poetry is no indication of divinity. I can find the writings of Shakespeare or Byron beautiful, but it does not follow that they are anything more than wonderful human creations. Still, I’m willing to work with you on this one… if you say I have to explore the holy books, can you suggest a few passages from the quran which might offer some proof of god’s existance in a way which doesnt require some measure of blind faith or a circular arguement? That’s the only thing I ask for to put a dent in my skepticism, and I’ve yet to find it in any religion.
In exchange, I ask you to perform a thought experiment. Why would an all powerful god have only made one revelation? If he cared so about humanity, surely he would have continued to spread the word through various messengers until everybody got it. Even the prophets Islam reveres can hardly be said to be in perfect agreement. Jesus may have updated the teachings of Abraham and Moses, and Muhummad those of Jesus, but ask yourself why an almighty god wouldn’t have just gotten it right in the first place. Ask yourself why he would allow contradictions in the sayings of these prophets in first place, or better yet, why he wouldn’t have at least had these prophets say in no uncertain terms that an update might be pending, how EXACTLY that update would be coming. It would have solved a lot of problems, wouldn’t it? Instead of now Jews, Christians and Muslims (say nothing of the endless sects these groups further subdivide into) who all too often come in to conflict over the divisions created by their religion, we’d just have one happy bunch of monotheists who can get along and worship god as he wanted, instead of killing each other. The current situation can’t be very pleasing to this god, so why, with unlimited power, wouldn’t he have organized it a little better? Or even just do something completely obvious to set everybody straight?
And out of curiosity, were you born into a muslim family Saad? Either way, imagine that by luck of the draw you were born into a different faith, in a region of the world where you would have no chance of ever having come into contact with Islam. Can you see yourself a devout follower of another faith had you been raised differently? Ask then why so many others are not islamic, but rather deeply pious worshipers of another god, or many gods, or even the same god but in a flawed way. The reason is simple, of course. They were raised being told it was so. When they had questions which could not easily be answered, somebody turned to whatever “holy” book they happened to be enthralled to, and looked up the answers, and justified them because, of course, they had been led to believe that book was divine. Is that so different from your own experience? Do you really have any more reason to believe the quran is holy than the child surrounded by christians has believe the bible is holy? Do you not find it incredibly arrogant to assume your religion to be true simply because it happens to be yours? You argued earlier that *something* must have created this universe. I’ll not argue that, but on what grounds do you make the leap to it being your something?
Finally, a point on your response to Leonidas: You can’t argue that Islam does not owe its prominence, and perhaps even its very survival, to several waves of military conquest. The initial Arab expansion, the advances of the Ottoman empire, the Mughals, and various conquerors in South East Asia among others. It is a very, very dangerous game to take history and assign groups as vast and long lasting as religions positions as aggressors or victims. If you look closely, everybody is guilty. Let’s not play that game.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
And Leionidas… Really?
Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not an American, but poligamy is illegal in the US regardless of your religion, right?
July 5th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Alberto: because of Jesus’s death on the cross, God demands holiness from christian converts; follow peace with all men and holiness without which, no man shall see the lord[Hebrews 12:14] you don’t understand that all who profess to know Christ is of Christ, the bible speaks of many false teachers to come in the latter times, which I believe we have arrived, many shall say I am Christ and shall deceive many; Jesus said that, the 66 authorized books of the bible[textus receptus] received text were God breathed to man and penned down, because they are in unison and agreement, the problem comes with all the added versions[new age bibles] deletions and additions, being an unbeliever[you] I don’t expect you to know what took me a true conversion and study of the scripture for thirty years to know, the bible has the good, bad, ugly in it, because it describes the state of man from the beg. until now, totally depraved and of need of a savior[Jesus] he only can change the nature of man, what he thinks, how he thinks, his moral atributes, we can try to be good, but fail each time, we have the curse of Adam and Eve on us and only the shed blood of Christ can take it away. I recommend the KJV 1611 and the Geneva Bible, but the rest of them has been sorely tampered with over the centuries.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I think we should use numbers and compare before making any inferences and judgments. Let me list down few for comparisoin & to give food for thought.
Total number of all warriors from both sides killed in the 23 years is less than 400.
Compare this with other revolutions.
Number of civlians killed by non Muslims during the entire 1400 years compared to number of civilans killed by Muslims, should be the metrics to be used to reach a fair conclusion.
Historicall, muslims were either under seige or being attacked by a much more powerful force, and they defended themsleves in the 23 years.
Look at the number of civilians killed by crusaders vs those killed by Muslims during the crusades.
Sultan Salahuddin Ayyubi is never killed civilians.
Number of civlians killed during spanish inquisition vs civilians killed during Muslim rule in spain.
Number of civlians killed in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Number of Palestinian civlians killed vs non Muslim civilans.
Number of cvilians killed in Nagasaki, Hiroshima, German nazi camps, alone make up for the attrocities done by Non Muslims on civilians.
Number of civilans killed in Kashmir in the last 60 years.
Civlians killed in Iraq war.
Was there any justification of killing millions of Muslims in Iraq?
Don ‘t get angry.
I am only asking you to compare numbers and then make fair inferences.
A fight between two combatants cannot be mixed with fight between a combatant and a cvilians.
It is true Muslim armies have fougth battles, but it also stands true for everyone thorough out the ages.
Also, when the cvilians population trains itself as militia, then they also fall into the category of combatants, because both parties acquire the abilty to kill each other.
We should be fair and get specific education with an open mind before undermining anyone.
Due to the unfortunate incident of 911, Muslims and Islam, and the historical contributions of Muslims are being unfairly targetted and dismissed.
I think we should open our hearts to the truth, and not lock ourselves into a one eyed thinking, due to 911.
Situation in Pakistan is very complex, it is a mix of the deprived, misugided, and some vested interested in the region who have tried to dimish Pakistan.
I care about civlians, regardless of religion or background.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:27 am
The Quran has many signs, it is a miracle if looked at carefully. Students of comparative religon like Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Gary Miller, Dr. Bucaille, Late Ahmed Deedat, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Brother Imran, Abdul Raheem Green, Dr.
Yusuf Islam, Shabir Ally have pointed out the signs in the Quran. I urge everyone to check out the scholars to learn about signs in the Quran, with an open heart, accept or reject it is your choice. But do not reject it out of hate or preconceived notions or ideas.
Many of the signs in the Quran have been verified with recent dissoverie in various areas of knowledge. I expect readers to check out themselves, if they are intereste. Howver, let me quickly list down few of them given in various verses.
City of Iram
Himan who built towers for Pharoah during the time of Moosa, peace be upon him.
Right sequence of bone & flesh formation.
Embryology
Shape of earth compared to the egg of ostrich.
Seven skies
geology
oceans
Sun moon and earth floating in different orbits
and many many more.
Also, there is not a single error proved by any expert in various fields.
Allah invites experts to find one error or to disprove, none of the expedrts have succesfully found a single error.
Also, remember the Quran is guidance given to the messenger over a period of 23 years in response to his context & experience and there is no contradiction.
July 6th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Gentleman
I have read all your comments with great interest. Many different viewpoints and beliefs, a microcosm of the world at large.Ask yourselves why do any of you have to be absolutely right? Are we not the most dangerous as humans when we possess and act upon fervent absolute beliefs?
When you attack each other in print what is accomplished, apart from demonstrating discord.
Does not our knowledge and understanding continue to grow over time? As I grow older and ponder the unknown I understand my knowledge to be relative and subject to change. But I have learned from all of you. even the most fervent, and for that I am grateful.
Respectfully and relatively
Bola, young at thought
July 6th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Lead, could you please post references to the verses which provide this profound information? Just going through your list, I have a few questions which specific passages might clear up (if they are indeed as profound as you claim)
Knowledge of the city of Iram is hardly profound. Archeological evidence suggests a site which might have been a major point on Arabian trade routes as being destroyed, probably as result of a collapse sealing the water supply, sometime in the 400s AD, perhas not much more than a century before Muhummad. Death of a settlement due to lack of water hardly requires divine intervention, nor is it unique. Iram was, apparently, a major spot along trade routes, it is not suprising that Muhummad, as a merchant, would have heard tales of it. A century or two is not so long a lifespan for a tale of the destruction of an entire city… but plenty of time for the details to grow in the telling.
Himan who built towers for the pharoh. Why is this important? A lot of people built a lot of impressive things for pharohs.
Right sequence of bone and flesh formation? Embryology? Many ancient peoples had quite an advanced medical knowledge. Direct me to the relevant verses, and I’ll wager I can find reference to knowledge just as impressive from another culture at a similar or earlier date.
Geology, oceans and the shape of the earth? Incredibly vague references, but still, the ancient Greeks had a rather accurate impression of the circumference of the earth centuries before the Islamic era (and arrived at it without any divine assistance) while the Roman empire supported a trade network stretching from Britain to India, and indirectly on to China, which would have required a good knowledge of the oceans, nevermind some geology, as precious and semi-precious stones and metals were common trade goods. Are you refering to a knowledge more impressive?
What is revealed in the Quran about astronomy that is equal to modern knowledge, or even a step above what was available elsewhere in the age of Muhummad? Direct me to verses and I shall take a look. The sun, earth and moon don’t “float” in their orbits, by the way.
I’m not even sure what you mean by seven skies, bu I imagine that at best the relationship between a reference in the quran to such a thing would require a gross simplification to relate to any area of modern knowledge of weather or the atmosphere.
What about those “many many more?”
I have had many people tell me that if I read the quran, I will understand how miraculous it is, but I have read it, and it came across as little more than another version of the same abrahamic stories (which I don’t fault as they are in the same tradition, but they are too fantastic to be taken seriously) and a series of rules and proscriptions which are offered with little justification other than the fact that deviance makes god angry, repeated endlessly. In fact my impression of god was that if he existed in the way the quran reveals him, he must be rather disturbed. Creating the world, filling it with people, and then splitting his feelings towards those people between incredible love and furious wrath, with manic sprinkingings of mercy in between? Think about that.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Only when all religion is gone will the human race ever find peace. When we realize that geography is the only difference between cultures, races, and sexes, there will no longer be reasons to harm oters.
Religion is based on fear. Fear of the unkown.
Religion is used to controll the weak minded.
Religion has been used to justify the murder of BILLIONS of Human beings.
In my opinion I beleive Religous wars, religous justification, religous fears have killed more people than all of illness combined.
When will mankind wake up? When will we stop caring what others believe is divine? When will se stop warring over things that in the end matter none? The law of man is the only law that needs to be followed. And who makes the law of man?
July 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Not neing highly educated . The simple truth is that all religious beliefs originated from fear of the unknown,as aninals getting perturbed when the elements act abnormally. Once the humans brain developed more they assumed there must be an unseen energy pulling the strings, that cause these abberations (?) .
July 6th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Bola: there is an absolute truth and his name is Jesus; only he could say: I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father, but through me. John 14:6, the bible also states in the book of Timothy: ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, man in all his wisdom does not know God
Having earthly wisdom does not compare to Godly wisdom, when Jesus Christ returns to rule in the millenial reign, I believe it will be more modern and high tech than man could ever conceive
Where does people get these illogical ideas that to know the lord is to spin backwards into time, God is very aware of what is going on in planet earth and what is going to happen in the coming days, he saw it all thousands of years ago, nothing takes him by surprise, think about the last one hundred years and the advance of high tech and rapid transit, all of it was predicted in the book of Daniel; Knowledge shall be increased, many shall run to and fro in the latter days, aerial views of traffic at night reminds me of that scripture, in Nahum 2, the auto
and truck is mentioned :The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Islam, where is your love? We all know where is your Jihad and the idea that women should be covered up because they excite men. Or whatever your thinking is about hiding the natural beauty of women. Everything in Islam seems to be about controlling others. And keeping other ideas out to the extreme of killing or wanting to kill someone that coverts to another religion, e.g. Christianity. Are the ayatollahs afraid their temporal power, exercised through government power, will be exposed for what it is. Denying the free will of humans, both men and women! They deny other basic freedoms to their citizens so why stop there! Treat them as robots!
July 7th, 2009 at 9:26 am
I left the details about the signs in the Quran on purpose, because many students of comparative religion menitoned in one of my last two postings have alreay provided the details on YT and their websites.
I have confirmed and know those facts exist in the Quran, and I urge the readers to find it themsleves on the web or YT, explained by Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Bucaille, Dr. Haroon Yahya, Dr. Gary Miller, late Ahmed Deedat, Dr. Jamal Badawi, and few others.
By the way many of the students of comparative religions are former non muslims.
By the way, the stages of embryology inclduing the sequence of growth, which I have briefly mentioned, belong to the stages of human development, which is only visible through electroinc microscope, not naked eye.
The existence of the city of Iram mentioned in the Quran, and not any other holy text, has been discovered in one of the archeological findings in Syria.
Also, Mr Hamaan has been mentioned 7 times in the Quran in reference to Moosa (may peace be upon him) and the Phaaroah he was dealing with.
Existence of Hamaan not given in any other holy text, has been cofirmed through the archeological findings in Egypt.
Also, Allah the Almighty says in the Quran about Pharoah, that he would preserve the body of Pharoah for….
My field of endeavor is different, not comparative religion, but I had investigated the information sometime back myself to confirm.
Also, according to the Quran, sun, moon and the earth are not stationary.
I remember when I was a kid my science teacher told the students, sun is stationery and earth moves around it.
I asked people about it, that Allah in the Quran says it is not stationery, I was told there is must be some wisdom, Allah knows better.
But as we grew older the knowledge changed, and it is universally accepted that sun is not stationaery, which validates the injunction given in the Quran.
I think fundamentally, we must at least recognize, even if don’t accept Islam, that the Quran always pass the test of time, there is no contradiction in the Quran, and it is not from human.
Once again, I urge folks to do their own ivestigation if they are interested, read Bucaille, Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Gary Miller, Haroon Yahya, Dr. Yusuf Hamza, Shabir Ally, and confirm on their own, accepting Islam or rejecting is obviiously invidual’s call, there is no compusion in the religion.
Also, being Muslim is all about discipline in life to earn rewards from Allah, and not just being born in a Muslim family, or saying I am a Muslim.
Allah Almighty clearly says in the Quran, I create jinns (fire based creation) & inns (earth based creation, humans) for the reason of worship.
Worship is not only 5 times prayers, fasting, zakaat, Haj, or believing in oneess.
Worship has a wider context in Islam.
As an example, to help other human beings to earn rewards from Allah and not gain reputation or influnce, is worship.
We walk away from doing purverted attacks, anger, hate, greed,dishonesty, show off only to please Allah, and earn rewards and recognition from Allah.
Islam is not about vengeance, as some Muslim have deviated from the true path, become terrorist, unfortunately in the name of Islam.
The muslim society in the times of the messenger’s (may peace be upon him) 23 years was also oppressed deprived and humiliated in Madina like many Muslim have been treated in the present age, and Allah did not ask them to react by torching their houses or terrorizing people.
When a Muslim reacts to oppression, deprivation, humiliation violently & resort to killing civlians, then the muslim loses the purpose of being a Muslim, and become worse than the one who wronged him.
This is also common sense of life and should apply to everyone.
The reaction should also uphold the Islamic values of justice.
Muslims migrated to etheopia and madina instead of getting violent to the civlians.
Also, Jihad has a wider context.
The highest form of jihad is to fight against ones own evils and do what is right, do the righteousness.
Also, Islam does allow Muslims to defend their homes and fight the intruder, regardless of the religion of the intruder.
This is also form of a jihaad in the name of Allah, when you are protecting you home against the invasion of an intruder, because Allah obligates you to.
To fight enemy for other reasons like greed, hate, robbery, is not jihaad.
July 7th, 2009 at 11:36 am
By the way, there is no clergy or holy class system in Islam. Everyone has one on one connection with the Almighty, and responsible for ones action.
Consensus is fundamentally the clear way given in the Quran to make public decisions.
It is the responsiblity of men and women to be educated or seek knowledge in Islam.
It is more important kind of worship than the worship like extra prayers.
The Almighty have given rights ot both men and woman.
Read the last sermon of the messenger when he conveyed, no one is superior to no one, except by the reason of piety, and in the view of Allah.
The attitude of some of the mullahs towards Islam should not be equated to the attitude of Islam towards women.
The messenger (peace be upon him) conveyed the best among you is one who is good to his wife (s).
A Muslim is required to deal with his or her spouse to please Allah, as obedience, even if it is against their whims and anger.
However, they both have rights over each other.
Self indulgence, purversion, watching woman with desire, promscuity, cheating, strip clubs, porn is not an option in Islam.
If one vows to give the same rights, in the eyes of Allah, then the Almighty has given permission to marry more than one upto 4 wives, with mutual conset, responsiblity, rights, inhertence rigths, and declaration in public.
If a woman or man is being deprived of his or her God given rights as wife or husband, she or he has the right to divorce, after their sincere efforts in make it better.
Decisions in Islam, choices as muslim, are generally based on self conciousness of the Almighty, patience, fear of the Almighty, benefecience and mercy of the Almighty.
As I said, Islam is fundmentally about being disciplined, doing what is right, doing rigteousness to obey Allah, the net result of obedience is peace of mind, serenity, trust in the Almighty that it is for our own good, what ever happens, according to our wishes or not.
Prayers for worldly success is also focused on askiing, if it is for our own peace, blessings, good in the hereafter, otherwise give me what is good for my hereafter, iman, peace, serentiy, and give me contentment to accept it.
Also, Islam is the religion of all prophets from day one, some of them are clearly given by name, others not.
It is not a new religion, because the message of Islam is fundamentally, thee alone we worship, thee alone we seek help. Everything else depends on it.
Justice and basic needs is the responsiblity of the Islamic state. Zakaat is 2 1/2 percent of assets beyond certain threshold, and everyone Muslim in an Islamic state has the God given right to zakaat to cover basic needs, if one does not have means, however, one has to be God concious and not lazy bum.
Because the state provides basic needs through zakaat to all who need, marriage is sunnah of the messenger (may peace be upon him) and encouraged, the punishment for greed, embezzlement, rape, adultry is given as a deterrent, not something that should happen on a regular basis.
Saudi Arabia is not a perfect example, because they may have nepotism, have monarchy, which violates the fundamental principle of consensus in Islam to choose leaders, however, they use Islamic punishments as deterrent.
Their crime rate is still one of the lowest.
Their prisons are not over croweded.
The application of the punisments is a rare happening because there are hardly any incidents of rape, adultry, embezzlement.
Saudi’s do not use Islamic law when they don’t allow their woman to drive.
I agree that Saudi Arabia is not the perfect example but closest in some ways.
July 7th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
America the beautiful,
or so you used to be.
Land of the Pilgrims’ pride;
I’m glad they’ll never see.
Babies piled in dumpsters,
Abortion on demand,
Oh, sweet land of liberty;
your house is on the sand.
Our children wander aimlessly
poisoned by cocaine
choosing to indulge their lusts,
when God has said abstain
From sea to shining sea,
our Nation turns away
From the teaching of God’s love
and a need to always pray
We’ve kept God in our
temples, how callous we have grown.
When earth is but His footstool,
and Heaven is His throne.
We’ve voted in a government
that’s rotting at the core,
Appointing Godless Judges;
who throw reason out the door,
Too soft to place a killer
in a well deserved tomb,
But brave enough to kill a baby
before he leaves the womb.
You think that God’s not
angry, that our land’s a moral slum?
How much longer will He wait
before His judgment comes?
How are we to face our God,
from Whom we cannot hide?
What then is left for us to do,
but stem this evil tide?
If we who are His children,
will humbly turn and pray;
Seek His holy face
and mend our evil way:
Then God will hear from Heaven;
and forgive us of our sins,
He’ll heal our sickly land
and those who live within.
But, America the Beautiful,
If you don’t - then you will see,
A sad but Holy God
withdraw His hand from Thee.
~~Judge Roy Moore~~
This man gave up all for his righteous stand.
July 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
There is no verse in the Quran that commands Muslims to make non muslim nations your slave because they are sinners.
In fact Musims are required to fight against the evil of their own soul, to please Allah, and it is the best kind of jihaad.
I think one should do ones own research before accepting anything, and believing something that is attributed to the Quran by anyone, Muslim or Non Muslim.
Yes it is true, if a Muslim loses his life in Jehad for the sake of the Almighty Allah, then the Almighty accepts him as shaheed and awards paradise in the hereafter, a place of everlasting peace and tranquility.
I think the author is ignorant about the life of the messenger.
Once again, total number of warriors killed on both sides in his entire 23 years of prpohethood is less than 400.
Compare it with other major revolutions and wars.
The accusations are not true.
I urge the author to go into details before accepting.
Also, not pay attention to those who disllike Islam or Muslms.
Go straight to the authentic sources to know the truth.
As an example, if you want to want to know about bilbe, you will go straight to the versions of bible or genuine scholars of bible, at least you would not go to somebody who is biased or hateful.
By the same token go to the Quran, and genuine scholars of the Quran, pious people, who know the context of the verses, their purpose in the 23 years historical context.
All Muslims in an Islamic state are obligated to pay zakaat, 2 1/2 percent, and it also means they are also obligated to fight if attacked or an attack is pending.
Howver, it is the resposibiliy of Muslim to protect non Muslims living in Islamic land, in the times of war.
They are requierd to pay Jizya insted of zakaat.
It is not unjust.
According to the Quran, a Muslim is requred to convey the message of truth, there is no compulsion to anyone or any nation to be forced.
The entire arabia was under his rule by the end of his life, he conveyd the message, far and wide, did not force any neighboring country or non Muslms to accept Islam.
In fact the quran clearly says there is no compulsion in the religion, truth stands out clear by itself from the falsehood.
Remember, hundred and thousads of people saw him personally, his faultess and pure character and lifestyle, and accepted him to be the prophet of God.
It is not something ordinary.
I ask with resepct, who is forcing non Muslims today, that millions of them are accdepting of Islam.
It does not make sense logically to beleive thatn somebody would become the most loved person, the most repsected person, millions accept him as prophet of God, and the person is forcing the religion or has flaws.
Also, the punishment for treason is death in the Islamic law.
The prophet asked their own leaders to use their own law to punish those who commited treason, because the Muslims and jews were under a agreement, and few of them violated the treaty.
Their own law granted them death penalty and executed under their own law.
This is not unjust.
July 7th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
This generation of muslims has been raised by mullahs. Its no coincidence that wherever islam meets poverty, the result is violence! WHY IS THIS? the poorer muslims are taught the radical/wahabi/violent version of islam. islam has always been political and leaders nowadays leverage that to defend their own practices. has their been any country in the past 50 years that has benefited from becoming religious… islamic republic of pakistan… of iran? look at india, where there are possibly still more muslims than in pakistan, yet its pakistan that has produced the fanatics, and the governement will never do much to put them down. LET was banned after 9/11. probably done to allow for the billions of dollars. then came the mumbai attacks, once again they put the leader under house arrest and he is back on the street.
I have to admit that there are radical HINDUS as well. Dont believe anyone that tells you differently, however the difference is that radical hinduism has very little say in india. as a secular and spiritual country, the people find it hard to swallow radical ideas. also radical hinuism doesnt have a broader agenda to convert the entire world, it is mostly targeted and DEFINED by the mullahs in pakistan who would like to see indian turn into taliban nation.
its sad, but true that muslims have no leaders with secular thinking as the idea alone is a dangerous one to even think about. no one dare talk against the quran. look at what they have done to poor old salman rushdi. called a fatwa against a guy who wrote a book and spoke his mind. killed vangogh’s relative in europe, now causing shit in China.
I have many muslim friends who are very open-minded, but they too are so brain-washed that its simply hard to envision a muslim country where secularism wins over fundamentalism.
for those who think that secularist idea is one promoted by the west to gain power and have their way, you are wrong.
Look at India, secular, but yet conservative in their ways, spiritual people, and are not consumed by the western way of thinking.
July 7th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
In our corporate lives managing prjoects, we make sure we have enough management reserves to take care of uknown unknowns.
We also compute known unknowns to deal with contengency reserves through risk response planning.
I think we should at least have the same attitude of management reserves in dealing with the existence of creator, what if there is one, should we not be prepared and keep sufficient and the required management reserves, just in case there is a creator and we find out the moment we die.
Also, what stands out as unique among all religions is ” thee alone we worship and thee alone we seek help, the message of Islam.
Rest, more or less, have some kind of associations, partnerships, linkages.
In Islam the messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) and all previous prophet (peace be on all), were slaves, servants sent by Allah on earth as prophets and messengers.
Their miracles including the Koran, was actually the doing of the Almighty, not the messenger, to provide evidence of the God to the mankind.
July 7th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
To Peter:
Peter, I expect only one thing from the people I argue with before I stop wasting my time with them. That one thing Peter is sincerity. I feel Peter that you are being insincere. Let me assume that you have indeed read the Quran. Let’s assume you are a historian. How is it then Peter, that you could miss something that is so clear in the Quran?
Let me backtrack a little bit. You said: ” if you say I have to explore the holy books, can you suggest a few passages from the quran which might offer some proof of god’s existence in a way which doesn’t require some measure of blind faith or a circular argument? That’s the only thing I ask for to put a dent in my skepticism, and I’ve yet to find it in any religion.”
Peter, I have already given a general argument for the existence of God in no uncertain physical phenomenon.
To Alberto: you said the word is out on the big bang because of the multi-verse theory, and this is where you expose yourself as a non-physicist. The only explanable scenarios of multiverses exist inside string theory and my proof was double-fold for both incidences where we ignore string theory and work with what we know or use string theory to unite our physical theories. In the multi-verse theory, we get determinism back in and with causality they necessarily imply that somebody set the trajectory of the evolution of our universe.
Back to Peter: In science, we have something called falsifiable hypothesis. Another words, the only way we can prove something is by performing experiments that could have a result that would disprove the hypothesis we originally held.
Now, I have already explained to you the necessity of a God. Read my blog above on how physical phenomenon necessarily point to something (and this is the second time I’ve had to clarify this is not apparently yet what I believe to be God).
Your hypothesis (and pretty legitimate at first glance) is that the Quran is written by a man. Alright I say then, let’s see if there’s a falsifiable test that can be conducted. Yes, there is. If the Quran was indeed written by a man, then men should also be able to recreate something of the likes of it. Let that be your test then, bring forth something which is of equal or higher literary calibre then the Quran which is not a plain forgery of it. And then God says in the Quran, you will disprove its autheniticity.
I don’t know how you can miss it. I am just giving you the earliest proof that God gives in the Quran. It is just the 30th verse in the book, the 23rd verse in the 2nd chapter. God says, “And if you are in doubts to what we revealed to our servant (Muhammad), then bring forth a single chapter of similar nature. But if you are not able to, and indeed, you will never be able to then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones.”
Another words, I don’t know what sort of historian you could be if you missed that my man. This is one of the earliest verses in the Quran. Kind of puts to doubt your whole claim that you have read most of it (although I will still assume you have)
By the way, history will also tell you that the Quran’s challenge to create a chapter of the likes of it has never been met by anybody although tried by many. This has been over the course of 1400 years. You will also know that the Arabs have always had a significant non-Muslim people amongst them. Right now, about 10% of the Arabs are non-Muslim. I arrived at my conviction after reading and understanding the Quran in Arabic. It is truly beautiful, something you are missing out on.
Peter, All-Mighty God, did not make just one revelation, he made plenty of them. The thing is that they were not preserved. We believe that the Torah,and the Evangel, in essence the Bible were revealed by God but that overtime, the rabbis and the priests manipulated it so much that the message of One God became anthropomorphized. God became like a man, God began to have partners. This is why God kept on sending new revelations. Muhammad’s revelation is not the only one that God sent. Islam believes that God sent messengers from the beginning of time, a messenger to every nation. Some had books, others didn’t. You find the message of the oneness of God in all revelations from the Vedas, to the Bible, the fact is that all these messages have been compromised. This is where God sent Muhammad, with the final message, one that he himself would preserve. Furthermore, we Muslims believe that if somebody hadn’t heard of the Quran, and wasn’t exposed to it, then his belief in one God and worship of this one God would be enough to put him in to heaven. Modern scenario, say you had a good christian, who did not view Jesus as God, had never heard of the Quran so he could never disbelieve in it, and was a good moral person, then this person would have a good shot at heaven.
The contradictions in these messages don’t come from God, they are created and added by humans. Humans have corrupted God message from the beginning of time. God, in His Mercy has not been updating but simply re-correcting his message. As creatures with a free will, we are entitled with this ability. It is for this reason that if humans will to follow a religion that has a tenant that believing that a certain man died on a cross would forgive you all of your sins, their only motive being sheer laziness to do actual research, they can but they will be accountable. Likewise, if men choose to follow a religion, which is hardly easy to follow and which requires a lot of patience and which requires hard work, then they will be rewarded. We are moral creatures, we choose to do the right thing or wrong thing. Often times, we have chosen to do the wrong which is why you see these problems.
Peter, I have never said that us Muslims are not guilty of violence. But let’s be honest, of the cultures in history, we are the first global one in the real sense. We are the most tolerant one. The Arab invasions were not justified (it may have been motivated) by wanting more money or power, it was justified because Persia and Rome were out to destroy us. In the wars of Apostasy, they openly attacked us. We fought back to survive and won big. We never justified entering India because of desire for more land. It was that our traders were continually harassed there, and a woman was abducted.
Finally, this is the absolute last one time I will answer questions related to theology. You have all made it abundantly clear that you can’t go and read basic information for yourself. If you are indeed a historian, I am surprised you don’t know these things. These arguments are absolutely useless if people are here just to argue.
To Clarence:
You wrote about Jesus being God and forgive me I did not see your blog until now. Here are the verses, I have taken the liberty to include the context. As you can see, Jesus is not saying he is God.
“14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? ”
If you look at the context, you realize that Jesus is not saying that he is God. Philip wanted to see God with his own eyes, but this is impossible since no one can ever do ever do that. So Jesus simply told him that his own actions and miracles should be a sufficient proof of the existence of God without God having to physically come down and let himself be seen every time someone is doubtful.
As for John 10:30, here is the passage and context:
27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
It is hardly that the Jesus is claiming Godhood, he is saying that the Father and Jesus are one in purpose, in the fact that noone can snatch the sheep out of either people’s hands, hardly a proclamation of unity. To clear the air, however, the Jews start stoning Jesus for claiming Godhood, although they themselves knew this not to be the case. It continues:
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘you are gods’? 35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Basically, the Jews take this to be a claim of Jesus that he is God. However, he tells them in no uncertain terms that the scripture itself says that everybody who has recieved scripture is a god. Notice the use of word god being of lowercase and not uppercase. If you are knowledgeable in biblical studies, you will realize that when the lowercase letter is used, it does not refer to the one and only God but of gods in general. The Greek scripture uses two very different words. One is ‘hotheos’, capital God, which means the Father, the other is ‘tontheos’, smaller case god, which means a person of power. Satan is called the ‘god of the world.’ Here Jesus, quotes Psalms, where he says that the scripture indeed says that people who get revealtion from God are gods in their own right.
If this was a proclamation of divinity, why would Jesus try to argue with them and protest him being stoned. An honest man would say, yes, indeed, i have claimed to be God. Jesus does not do this.
John 5:22 as you quoted proves nothing about Jesus being God and John 8:58 is hardly clear enough to mean anything.
All of Revelations, which you use to quote that Jesus is alpha and omega is just a dream. It has plenty of stuff that Peter also sees dragons and messed up creatures all of which is extremely shady. Nevertheless, Jesus doesn’t actually say he is the alpha or the omega. Don’t play with the evidence.
I believe Jesus was born of Virgin MAry as Islam requires me to. I believe that Jesus was the word, a spirit from God, a mighty Messenger, the MEssiah, all this not of my own, but because the Quran says so. I ask you however, why I should believe Jesus is God. And I don’t see how you justify this to me.
July 7th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
And how does being born of a virgin give you some claim to Godhood. What about Adam created without mother or father?
July 7th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
To Secular Hindu:
I would argue that if you oppress any people, they become violent. Add in poverty, this transition becomes easier. Give people rights and freedom and they won’t fight back. But is this the case with us? No! We are oppressed everywhere. Such is the case all over the world, in China, in Chechnya, in Palestine and yes even in Kashmir.
I have a lot of respect for you Hindus because you have allowed us to exist in India with a certain amount of freedom. We are allowed to live. I give you guys props for this at least, as I do to secular systems in Europe that allow this as well.
But, let us not forget that the BJP allowed the massacre of thousands of people in Gujarat and even partook in it. You guys don’t let Kashmir choose for itself who they want to be with.
BJP had the majority seats just less than 10 yrs ago. How can you say that the fundamentalist Hindus don’t have a say in the government of India. They obviously have a very large say in the government of India, that is flawed argumentation.
The discrimination is so open and forthright that right now, the economic status of Muslims is far below that of Dalits. Our regional seats are not filled in any of the provinces where we have a supposed quota. If you argue that our poverty is due to the fact we have more kids, so do the Hindus, yet we grow poorer because we get discriminated everywhere. We are the new Dalits of India. Our economic status is worse than theirs. Although just 50 yrs ago, we were much richer.
And such is not the case only in India. In Europe, it’s the same story and it’s the same story in all other secular systems. We are openly discriminated against. The hijab is banned in France. Job discrimination is rampant.
Perhaps, you should try to solve these discrimination problems before you tell us why your secular systems are so much more superior than our religious ones.
I have to admit that there are radical HINDUS as well. Dont believe anyone that tells you differently, however the difference is that radical hinduism has very little say in india. as a secular and spiritual country, the people find it hard to swallow radical ideas. also radical hinuism doesnt have a broader agenda to convert the entire world, it is mostly targeted and DEFINED by the mullahs in pakistan who would like to see indian turn into taliban nation.
its sad, but true that muslims have no leaders with secular thinking as the idea alone is a dangerous one to even think about. no one dare talk against the quran. look at what they have done to poor old salman rushdi. called a fatwa against a guy who wrote a book and spoke his mind. killed vangogh’s relative in europe, now causing shit in China.
I have many muslim friends who are very open-minded, but they too are so brain-washed that its simply hard to envision a muslim country where secularism wins over fundamentalism.
for those who think that secularist idea is one promoted by the west to gain power and have their way, you are wrong.
Look at India, secular, but yet conservative in their ways, spiritual people, and are not consumed by the western way of thinking.
July 7th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
the last five paragraphs is what you wrote, just clarifying
July 7th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
There is no agenda to convert the entire world to Islam. This is just a hype. As a matter, not even Islamic. Islam simply tells us to convey the message, and not kill yourself, if people do not, in fact there is a verse, Allah is even warning the messenger, not to consume himself.
The fact is 80 percent of the world disturances are due to only 20 percent of the root causes, occupation or/and oppression of Muslims against their wishes.
Basically majority of the Muslims have chosen to react by either use peaeful means or accepting it or simply using logic like myself.
Very small percentage, referrred to as extremists have chosen to react with force of their hand.
I think it is justified to criticize the the smaller group which has chosentviolent means to react to their occupation or oppression, but at the same time it is also equally justified to criticize those who have occupied them against their wishes.
I criticize the smaller group that has chosen violent means to react, because it is not true that the means always justify the end.
Islam has given us the way to deal with calamaties, occupation, oppression, through the example of messenger’s life and the Quran.
Also, before coming to conclusion, we must add up numbers and compare the killings & oppression from both sides, in all regions and in all times in the last 1400 years, and we must do it with honesty, keeping our desires out of the analysis.
July 8th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Respect for life, liberty and pursuit of justic, peace, however with God conciousness, are all fundamentally values given by Islam.
God conciousness means giving God given rights to Muslims and non Muslms alike, as Allah commands us to do it.
American constitution, with God conciousness, conform to Islam.
God conciousness means giving rights to new born, trees, animals, humans, business partnerships and not wasting.
Islam has also given us how to do it.
Islam has the institution of zakaat, for all have nots, to build things for their prosperity (wells, housing) and sustencance, which alone can take care of poverty, crimes.
Islam has disallowed interest.
Islam allows benefit through trade (selling and buying, give and take)or charity, zakaat only.
Zakaat is not a choice, it is mandatory to be Muslim.
Written contracts with witnesses and quick justice, under the contract is the way to deal with contentions.
You have rights if you entered a contract with witness, otherwise it is your mistake, if you simply chose to trust somebody, and expected income from your investment. However, Allah will do the justice in the hereafter, no matter what.
Islam requires humans not to follow their vain desires and impulses.
Hijaab for men and women, is to avoid impulses and getting drawn into the vain desires, and to inculcate respect for woman as a intelligent human being, not an object.
Hijab for men means lowering your gaze and not wearing provocative attire showing their body below navel and above knees.
Hijab for women means covering their bosoms, glamor of their hair, neck, shoulders, body & not showing off figure, and covering upto above the ankles.
Hijab for women fundamentally means not inviting men to their glamour, or giving ideas to stir up imagination.
Why God conciousness?
Because the Almighty owns us and everything, whether we like it or not.
We did not choose to get into the world, when and to whichfamily, no one will choose when it is time to leave.
Suicide is forbidden, under all circumstances, a person who commits suicide will go to hell, regardless.
Allah is merciful and benefcient, every chapter starts with that.
We all ulitimately get into a a situation, when we have no choice and accept our fate, no matter how strong.
Even supproting oppression is a mean act, even if the doer of oppression is your ownself, your own brother, your own family or your own country.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Open mindedness means you are ready to give rights to others even, if it means you had been wroing all along, your country was wrong, your brother was wrong, your parents were wrong, your family was wrong.
Open mindedness does not mean, if the person conforms to your way, then he or she is open minded.
As an example, the canadians showed open mindedness, when they deciede to hold referrendum, for the people of Quebec, to chose independence from Canada or not.
Open mindedness, is action, not words.
Please don’t angry.
The principle applies to everyone, including myself.
July 8th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Thank you Saad for finally posting a direct reference to at least one your sources. I grow oh so tired of people saying “look, it’s right there in the *insert holy book here*” and then not giving references.
Unfortunantly the example you give is deeply flawed for several reasons. The challenge to best the quran? I do remember the verse in question. The problem is how does one qualify something better? There are no criteria, other than saying upfront the challenge is impossible. Being that you are already a believer, raised on the unquestioned (and perhaps unquestionable) notion that the quran is perfect, obviously nothing will read better to you. It says so right in the verse you quote that nothing CAN be better. Personally I find Byron to be a much more beautiful read, but no doubt I lose so much in the translation. Either way, this is just a logic trap. The book issues a challenge, defines itself as the sole authority on that challenge, states that the challenge is impossible, and then cites the fact that it cannot be defeated as proof of its superiority? What nonsense.
Anyway, lets assume that the quran is indeed the most beautiful, powerful, perfect book in all Arabic. Considering that the arabic language owes its prominence, and much of its literary tradition to the quran and other writings related to Islam, why is that supprising? The book, the religion, the language, and the political history all go hand in hand. The language itself, as the language of religion and government, developed into its modern form under the shadow of the quran. The fact that the language and the book are inseperable means that it is by nature an impossible feat to improve upon it. It’s not different than telling an English speaker to improve upon Macbeth; because of the linguistic inheretance from such towering works, they form part of the poetic ideal of the language itself. It would be equally impossible to improve upon the works of Homer, or Cicero, or Cervantes or Goethe because the fact is that their works helped define their languages.
Which forces me to ask the question: Have you ever wondered why translations of the quran are rarely encouraged, and never accepted at the same value as the arabic? Is it perhaps that once outside the confines of the Arabic language, the message simply isn’t as powerful? Besides, you have Sunni, and Shia, and Sufi, and doubtless many other smaller groups within Islam, and even within these groups the fact that I can speak to a moderate or an extremist about the same things and get different answers ought to be evidence enough that even in the original Arabic, the quran is hardly perfect enough to convey god’s message without either some distortion, or at least room for different interpretations.
That being said, why shall we stop arguing? You’re doing quite well against the fanatical torrent of biblical quotations, and in spite of a few unwarranted personal attacks, our discussion has remained civil. My curiosity is unsated, and I’ve questions you’ve yet to answer. Indulge me. I won’t argue that something created the universe, (perhaps I could, but I’ve no more proof against it than for it) but you’ve still given no reason for me to make the jump from something to god as told by the quran. I fear your use of the scientific method is deeply flawed. The inability to falsify the idea of a creator does not imply the existance of your god any more than it implies the existance of any other. Unless you can falsify every other hyphothesis, you’ve no claim to truth.
July 8th, 2009 at 11:13 am
The fact is there is one Islam.
The Islam in totality introduced to the prophet & by the prophet in the 23 years, in letter and practice, as the last recepient of the message of the Almighty.
What makes those 23 years unique, the only requirment, the first and final version of Islam, is the presence of the messenger himself, and the fact that he was receiving the message in those 23 years in relationship to his context and experience.
Anything that grew or shaped in an environment in a localized way, in the absence of the messenger, may be called extraneous introduction, or innovation, but not Islam.
The prophet is uniquely important only because he was the only one chosen to receive message from the Almighty in those 2
3 year, rest is mushroom growth, not Islam.
So one should ask the scholar one on the original years path in principle and practice.
Labels do not matter, one may call oneself alfa beta sunni shia,w hatever, but Muslim matter to Allah only.
The messenger passed away as Muslim, and The Quran commands humanity to die as Muslim and nothing else, with the messenger as the ultimate example, and no one else.
Also, there is no such thing as Muslm god or Muslim god.
There is one and only God for everyone, the eternal, with no parallel, one and only one, neither begetted nor begotten, with no relationships, alone, unique, the creator, merciful. The quran has given more than 99 attributes of the God. In our prayers, we wait and see or focus on the Almighty through his attributes, because nobody can see the Almighty. Prayers is useful with patience only, otherwise it is unnecessary labor.
July 8th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Translation by Dr. Mohsin
“Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allâh has not appointed light, for him there is no lightt.24:40, Al-Noor”
It tells us there are internal waves in deep oceans, this very fact was not discovered until the 19th century.
Darkness of deep seas and the ocean has been recently discovered with the help of the new submarines the darkness exists at least 200 meters depth, no light can pass at 200 meters depth.
The logical question is, who told Muhammad (may peace be upon him about this fact) about the internal waves or the darkness upon darknessin the depth of the ocean.
Allah, the Almighty, the praiseworthy revealed these facts to the messenger, out of His boundless mercy, so that you are not burdened for accepting Allah’s words without sufficient proof.
This alone should be sufficient to accept the Quran as the word of God. Nonetheless, Alalh has, out of His mercy, given several more signs or proofs in the Quran.
Also, Dr. Moore has used the Quran to explain stages of embroyology.
July 8th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
To Peter:
Trust me, I really can understand what you are saying. First of all, I guess I should clarify because I made the error of saying that the challenge is to bring something of equal or higher literary caliber. That is not what God says. He says to bring forth something of the likes of it, something of similar nature. You are right: although it may sound better to me, it does not necessarily mean it sounds better to someone else.
This is not the challenge however. The challenge is that bring a chapter of similar nature. Similar nature with respect to what?
Backtracking again: the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the ‘rhyme’. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning ‘The Seas’. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria’. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall’s book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic. He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.
The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called “rhymed prose” or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses. One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa’idah in pre-Islamic times.
So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook
In this issue, Peter, you really have to know Arabic to be able to judge. If you don’t know it, then it will be very hard for you to ever understand because there are no analogies from english that we can draw into the Arabic of the Quran. Yes, Shakespeare and Goethe and everybody spoke in a very high form of the literature of their own language. But, look plenty of people have been able to produce something that resembles Shakespeare’s writings. In fact, some of the plays that Shakespeare wrote may have been written by others.
For the Quran, there is no other form of Arabic literature that approaches it in its style. The standard is a pretty objective one as you can see. This is without even going into its simplicity and rationality, depth of message, how it sounds, how easy it is remembering. It is simply unmatched. Look, the challenge is to produce a chapter of the likes of the Quran, right. Well the smallest chapter in the Quran is 10 words, or three verses.
10 words Peter. 1400 years later and the non-Muslim Arabs have nothing to show for just 10 words or three verses knowing fully well that if they did, then they would have disproved this religion.
And the fact of the matter is that the non-Muslim Arabs will admit it to you. The Quran is recognized by proficient Arabs as the highest form of the Arabic language in that it was not part of anything they knew about.
By the way, when God says this verse, the Arabs understood it to be a challenge, as I do. If something of similar nature was produced, it would discredit the very foundation of our religion. It would be an outright disproof of the entire faith.
It is not fair of you to presume that I have indeed ever taken it for granted that the Quran is irreplicable. If somebody did the challenge, I may reject my faith or I may not. The fact is that nobody ever has. Arabic’s history of 1400 years has shown otherwise. Nonetheless, I take strongly to your right to presume. Why don’t you go do some historical research my friend?
Myself having at least some proficiency in the Arabic language, I see that you are at least partially right. Some things in the Arabic have double-meaning which is a source of some misunderstanding at times. However, these are hardly related to issues of law, but rather to issues of theology, as in how the day of judgement will come, i.e. things of which the real nature is unknown. The difference between us Sunnis and Shias is not due to the Quran, it is because they use their Imams to supplement them in issues of divine law where as we try use the example of the Prophet, his sunnah.
Peter, as a scientist, I respectfully disagree with your analysis. My null hypothesis was that this book has been written by a man (seems reasonable). If this is true, then men should be able to create something of the likes of it. The fact that no one has been able to (just 3 verses, 10 words) over the course of 1400 years, means that we can reject the null hypothesis. Note the experiment has been conducted over a course of 1400 years. We can reject the null hypothesis, this not written by a man nor can it be produced by humans.
I don’t have to falsify every other hypothesis because I am just rejecting my null hypothesis.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Peter,your arguments are indeed powerful.
Can Saad please explain to me why Moslems keep no dogs or pigs in their homes and farms?
Dogs were the first animals domesticated 15000 years ago and with their fierce loyalty to the family that raised, them helped the early humans improve their family’s safety from wild aggressive animals .
Pigs are an excellent source of food and their heart valves can replace human defective heart valves without being rejected, thus sick people can regain their health.
So,why the Moslems hate them?
Why the Afghan taliban destroyed the majestic Budha Statue in Benim?
Karl Marx was famous for saying “religion is the opium of the people” which in modern times seems to apply to ISLAM only!
Mohammed had sex with his last wife when she was 9 years old! In Western societies this is pedophilia and is punishable by law!
We are in the middle of Islamic attacks on many countries around the world-china was attacked this week by the Uiger Moslems-so the world will suffer until the Koran is finally discredited for the hate it teaches for ALL INFIDELS = for ALL NON MOSLEMS.
In the Koran Mohammed says somewhere”Oh Arabs, I now give you the word of God in Arabic ,so YOU MUST FOLLOW IT!”
Clearly the Koran is THE instrument of ARABIC IMPERIALISM that is against all non-moslem =INFIDELS ,so world be aware!
July 8th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
This article is so full of fallacies that I thought it was a joke. You talk of Augustine and the catechisms of the Catholic church, conveniently failing to remember that Augustine’s advice was not heeded, how many wars to you truly believe the ‘christian’ West has fought following his criterion? How many wars has the Vatican started in applying pressure on foreign leaders to go and invade the then peaceful muslims of Jerusalem?
WORST of all you talk of the enlightenment, as if it is a purely Christian invention. ANY historian, ANY philosopher worth his/her salt will tell you that the Christian enlightenment undoubtedly had its roots in Islamic thought, due to texts that had been kept safe by Muslims, and the invaluable work of Muslim philosophers. This all happened at a time when the Vatican called everything that didnt spout its agenda a heretic object and called for them to be burnt. Looks like the new religion on the block did a lot more for religious freedom than the ‘peaceful and civilised’ muslims…
You call prophet Muhammad a hedonist, but you provide no proof. You call him a warlord, but if truth be told - he followed Augustine’s points to a T, he was forced into defensive war by a hostile city that time and time again wanted his head.
You forget that prophet Muhammad established precedents in leniency, forgiving several tribes, (Jewsih) tribes that had waged war on them, hows that for enlightened?
I know ive written quite a bit, but lets look way past prophet Muhammad. Lets look at religious tolerance, as you point to the use of instituting ijma, the tax on non-muslims. You do not take the time to understand that such a tax allows for non-muslims to have all the protection and rights of a muslim.
How about the Spanish inquisition? Ferdinand and Isabella forcefully took over southern Spain, where Christians, Jews, and Muslims had been living in harmony. After taking it over, the jews were forced to either convert or leave… where is the religious tolerance here… why did the civilised religion kick the jews out… how come the jews had to go live amongst the uncivilised people of an uncivilised religion in North Africa?
The Spanish inquisition also ensured the persecution of Muslims AND protestants…..
July 9th, 2009 at 9:08 am
One must understand, fundamentally life is test or challenge from the creator.
Different people have different challenges.
Some are deprived.
Some are grabbers
Some are poor.
Some are rich.
Some have the tendency to follow desires.
Some are lazy
Some are strong.
Some are weak.
Some have power
Some are prone to self indulgence and desires
Some become purverted and think it as natural
Some are greedy
Some are liar
These are all different kind of tests.
The bottom line is one must not find excuses to justify ones behavior and blame it on nature or God.
These are tests from the creator, and one must not yield to desires, and pass the test, to earn rewards and inner peace.
This is submission to Allah, not making excuses. srtiving in the way of Allah, pulling oneself quickly out of ones disposition, because it is obedience to Allah.
IT HAPPENS to EVERY, BUT SOME PEOPLE CONFRONT IT with reflection and right steps, SOME YIELD.
Allah is merciful, forgiving, his door for mercy & forgiveness are always open, as long as the person is sincere in his belief, AND FOLLOWS THE METHODOLOGY OFFERED BY ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER TO LEAD A PIOUS LIFE AND LEARN KNOWLEDGE, AND REFLECT.
One must take the challenge head on, confront the challenge.
This is ibadah, this is submission, this is Islam.
Remember, humans by nature feel they are naturally wired, after they consistently yield to a certain dispostion, inclination.
One must have heard about terms like pathological liars, other deviant behaviours, as an example.
Islam is all about discipline, accepting bad and good things as a test from the creator, instead of accepting it as nature, and taking the right steps to please Allah, for ones own success (spiritual & internal)
5 times prayers, as many as possible in a congregation, specially early morning and before sleep prayer,with patience, with submission, sincerity, reflection, keeps a pious muslim on track, and contentedin his daily life,keeps him or her away from deviant behavior.
Muslms who are by name Muslims, but accept the way of the non Muslims, are more or less in the same boat, predicament, conflicts, lack of peace of mind, like the ones not striving towards righteousness..
In short, one has to practice the way of the messenger (may peace be upon him) on a daily basis, to stay the course, and have lasting peace of mind until the last breath.
One is away from excesses and extreme behavior when one is consistently following the sunnah of the messenger.
Please do not cite the example of Muslim extremists in the mountains between Afganistan and Pakistan, because, moderaton is the way of islam, not killing civlians, except certain kind of criminals on a case by case basis, depending on judgment.
However, do remember, the one who have freaked out these people through their oppression and occupation of Muslms, are equally responsible for the world disturabance.
We must understand, 80 percent of the world disturbances are due to the 20 percent causes like occupation of Palestine and Kashmir.
If these two issues alone are resolved amicably, 80 percent of the world disturbance will be in control.
There will be few extremist left.
Worlld will become a peaceful place for everyone.
July 9th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Hisham said that.
He was from Iraq.
He was old when he said that in Iraq.
He was known to be forgetful.
All other traditions that qualify the stringent requirments, to accept trasditions as strong, say she was in her teens. Anyway, Islam does allow one to marry a woman who has periods.
The requirement is periods, mutual consent.
Consensus of the wise and pious and family members is the fundmental tool of Islam for such decisions.
Also, the wedding is a public event in Islam.
Public constituted those who accepted him the messenger of Allah, a pious servant of Allah, and strictly followed his sunnah.
It is not something from the ordinary, scores (hundredsd and thousands) of people saw him, saw his character, and accepted Islam, and him as the messenger of the creator.
Nobody ever pointed finger at him for his marriage to Ayesha r.
In fact Ayesha r was known to be their brilliant teacher and she taught scores of Muslims.
She is cited over and over for various traditions by several Muslims of that time.
So it also does not add up to accuse the messenger.
It is not possible someone would become the example to follow for his neigbors & millions , inside and outside home, and that person would be doing wrong things in his own life.
Ayesha r father Abu Bak r was one of his staunchest supporters.
Even his strongest enemies never pointed fingure at him about his marriage with Ayesha r.
His fiercest enemeies otherwise slang mud on him all the time, but still accepted that he was a man of character, trust, honesty.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Muslims can keep dogs for security, hunting, but not on their beds or walking around inside their homes as member of the family, or taking off clothes in their presence.
Pig is fundamentally a dirty animal, look at what it does, what it eats.
Muslims are not required to hate pig, only the meat is haraam (prohibited).
It’s valve can be used for repair or skin or hide for some useful purpose.
Also, developed countries may have the ability to make the meat more healthier and sanitary, but majority of the world is still poor, and they cannot get pork free of worms (microscopic life thing in the pigs meat which is harmful).
There is no scarcity of pigs in the world.
Poor majority of the world are not in a position even today to make the pigs meat more consumable and fit for eating, like the rich countries have been able to.
So if you look at numbers and compare, there is statistically more harm than benefit in eating pork, because there are way more poor people in the world,who get untreated pig’s meat.
Also, liquor is haraam, because there is more harm than benefits, and that is what the Quran tells us.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Leonidas, I already argued against Peter. Lead has answered your questions on pigs and dogs.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Ayesha (ra) was married to the messenger 1 to 2 years after migration to madina
The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before migration to madina and Ayesha r was a young girl (jariyah) when the surah was revealed. (Ref Bokhari, kitabe tafsir). Add the age of a girl and 1 or two years, the period after migration, to 9 years to get the approximate age. It adds up to approximately 18 years.
No one below 15 was allowed to participate and Ayesha r participated in the battle of Badr & Ohad. Keep in mind women in those days used to accompany men to battles for help not to be baby sit or become a burden.
Asma (ra), sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after migration to madina at the age of 100 years. This means Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration to madina. This means Ayesha (ra) being 10 years younger was 17 or 18 years old at the time of migration.
Also, Tabari reports that Abu Bakr r, the father of Ayesha r had 4 children, and they were all born during the jahiliyya, which is pre Islamic period. This means she was no less than 14 years one year after migration to madina.
Even according to the same gentleman Hisham, Ayesha r accepted Islam before Omar r, this shows she accepted Islam in the first year of Islam. She must have been at least few years old at the time. Add up the numbers and you see she was a lady at the time of her wedding with the messenger.
Abu Bakr r took Ayesha r to Ethiopia after son of Mut’am divorced her after Ayesha r’s father Abu Bakr r accepted Islam. Abu Bakr was one of those earliest who accepted Islam. This historical fact also shows that she was a young lady in her teens at the time she wed to the messenger, one or two years after migration to madina.
Ahmed bin Hanbal also reports Khaula after the demise of Khadija r brought the proposition to the messenger to marry a you lady (bikr). She did not say girl (Jarhya)
According to ibne Hijr, Fatima r, the daughter of the messenger, was 5 years older than Ayesha r. Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Keep in mind, he got his first revelation at 40. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her wedding.
None of the neighbors or people of Arabia or his enemies objected to his marriage, or made it an issue, or pointed finger at him. It is a historical fact, almost every one who saw him once, accepted him to be the messenger of Allah. Left and right, far and wide, people were gathering around him, accepting him to be none other than the messenger of Allah. It is not logical to believe, somebody of that stature, respect, honor, reverence, would have flawed personal life. If we look back, nobody ever raised objection in the annals of history or during the time of the messenger.
July 9th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Western Philosophy is equal to Islamic Philosophy based on Quran Bible and Torah. Differing only that God Created Universe not daily or recent father God mother Goddess Fire God Vulture God or animal God Ganga river Goddess. Islamic Prophet designed Method how to grow 1.5 Billion followers from one in shortest possible time.
None Muslims who have designed how to Grow their Economy using Muslim Resources Minus Muslim Management from IMF World Bank G20 G8 find themselves trapped with excuse in Iran oil Iraq Oil Kazakh Oil Afghan Oil and Xinjiang Oil Gas.Quran proved right that Almighty God is better Framer than those who follow G20 summit Mother God father god oil based Dollar Euro Stragey requiring Turmoil in Iran and Urumqui Afghanistan NATO network hoping to move in
Next door to acquire free stuff.This free stuff acquisition Method using Torah following Jewish Settlers in Palestine and new religion using Muslim from India Hindu Muslim
Splinter group is a curse under adverse frame up.But Almighty God is better framer than those who have developed using Economy based on Products which is under foreign Hostile Place.This is the difference in Islam vs None Islam Group Dilemma.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Saad, not knowing much Arabic (it is indeed on my “to learn” list, but my current studies require that I learn German first) I suppose I am not properly qualified to speak on the linguistic nature of the quran, but it still seems to me that the “challenge” you speak of is little more than a logic trap.
The verse itself which poses the challenge defines it as impossible. You might as well tell me to paint my own Renoir. If I paint something different, it is not a Renoir, and I fail the challenge, but if I copy an existing work, it is not my work, and I fail all the same. It is a clever game, but still just a game, and hardly proof of divinity.
Anyway, which are the specific verses to which you are refering? I assume you mean surah 103 or 108. They aren’t 10 words in my translation, but both are 3 verses. Anyway, we’re both coming at this from fundamentally irreconsilable positions. For somebody who already believes in the book, I suppose to some (though I’ll never quite understand why) that it is enough to believe that the book is something divine because the book says the book is something divine. To my way of thinking, that is an absurdity, but I suppose had I been raised differently, I might hold belief and submission to the same regard that I currently hold the values of doubt and inquiry.
Anyway, as for Leonidas and Lead, you both might do well to stop thinking in terms of entire cultures, of trying to advance your own and put down the other’s. If you want to go through hisotry, isn’t not at all hard to prove that pretty much everybody is wrong. My writings here have been mostly directed against Islam, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have respect for it as an historical force, more that Saad seemed to be an intelligent person with a differing viewpoint, rather than just somebody spouting lies, hate or fanaticism. I could just as easily be arguing against a christian right now. That’s the root of the arguement that got me started here: We need to turn away from things which divide us, or close our minds to reason and new thoughts.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:02 am
To Peter:
Absolutely, I guess if you do want to learn more, you’d have to understand Arabic. How can what I told you be a logic trap. It is hardly so. God addresses all of humanity when he says,
“If you are in doubts as to what we revealed to our servant, then bring forth a surah of the likes of it. And call your witnesses apart from God if you are truthful.”
It is a fact of history that most Arabs, even if they are Christians, will acknowledge that the Quran is the highest form of Arabic. Attempts to create three verse like it have fallen flat. All of them.
He’s not talking to only us Muslims, he’s talking to you non-Muslims. You said it was merely a subjective thing, how high something is in literary caliber. Well, I gave you an objective scheme based on what type of style it was (for the Quran a mixture of prose and verse). I have argued using completely objective, scientific rationals. Yes, sometimes you may have had to wait for my reasoning to become clear.
However, your point that our approach is fundamentally irreconcilable hardly cuts it. I feel I have been quite objective here. Anyways, it is for people to see the Truth and accept it on their own terms. No one else can force them to.
I did not come into this blog to argue for Islam. I came into this blog to argue against the author who was extremely biased against us. Then you had these crazy Christian fundamentalist who wrote derogatory remarks as well. My involvement was a defensive one. I was asked to provide all the evidence of my faith that I could.
July 10th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Don’t accept the Quran from the creator because it says so it is from the creator.
Look at the signs in the Quran more carefully.
Use some experts (in the field related to the sign given in the Quran) and see if they are able to disprove or find errors, whch they will not be able to, as the Quran conveys.
And if you find they are not able to disprove, then accept it to be the word of God.
This is what Allah Ta’Ala is conveying in the Quran to non Muslims to do.
You may look at verses more carefully with a clean slate, no preconceived bias, hate, with an open mind, no irrationality, related to expansion of universe, embryology, mountains, oceans, universe, bees, ancient civilizations, and more.
Kindly don’t jump to conclusions saying that he may have learned it from someone.
As an example the stages described in the Quran about human growth inside the womb have been recently found to be true after the discovery of electronic microscope.
Many of these signs have been found to be true after recent discoveries and after the sudden growth in the knowledge in the last century.
I have already provided number of references about miacles in the Quran, in my earlier postings.
Many scientists, acedemicians, priests, preachers, have already tried to disprove or find errors with an open mind, gone through the process, and reached the conclusion that the Quran is the word of God.
And, that is why we have seen a trend among the learned non Muslims of coming into the fold of Islam.
May be, we may try to learn from Dr. Gary Miller, Dr. Hamza Yusuf, Dr. Lange, Dr. Bucaille, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Khalid Yasin, Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Yusuf Estes…
July 10th, 2009 at 8:19 am
To Saad and to all those who think that the existence of God or of a Creator can be logically demonstrated and it is an inescapable necessity.
When confronted with the universe, the sun,our planet and the life that flourishes on it we all ask the question ” how did all this come into being ?”.
In fact we all ask ourselves this question from a very early age.
It is very natural since we are programmed to think in terms of cause and effect : if something is there, something else must have caused it to come into existence.
It is necessary for our survival to use this mode of thinking and certainly animals think the same way.
However when we come to seek an answer to the question “how did all this come into being ?” we do not have an answer, it is simply a mystery.
Many people are not happy about living with a mystery, they find it very troublesome.
To resolve this troublesome mystery the invoke an unseen all powerful supernatural being who, they believe, has created the universe and all things within it.
I would really like to have an answer to the following.
How can it be logical to resolve the first mystery with another mystery ?
I find anyone who thinks that the mystery of the universe and of all things within it can be resolved by positing another mystery as being intellectually dishonest to himself.
If you are really honest in your thinking you simply have to say “I do not know”.
The other intellectual dishonesty is to say that the universe must have been caused by another entity, that being God.
You cannot invoke the causality chain and then break it when it is convenient to you.
If you are intellectually honest then you have to ask “how God came into being ?”. Did the God that created the universe come into being by the agency of a bigger God before him ?
And of course you end up with the absurdity of having to go on ad infinitum.
Keep in mind that infinity, like zero, are constructs of the human mind. There is no proof that either exist.
Just because we can formulate a concept in our mind it does not follow that such concept must be real.
Let’s forget about Gods of any kind, let’s just be good friends.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:05 am
To Alberto:
I feel that there is no reason why we, Alberto, us Muslims and you atheists, humanists, whatever you are, can’t get along. I think that we should indeed have good cordial friendly relations with each other. We are both logical, intelligent people. It’s just so difficult for me not to come off as angry when there are blogs like this which are so biased. I mean, how can the author conclude what he did? It is truly outrageous and derogatory.
Having said that, I can not just forget God. And in fact, why should I? We have argued here on this blog. I apologize for any rude remarks I may have made to any of you. I was angry that so many people could be so unfairly disproportionately biased. However, I tried to argue using logic and rationality. I am sure that this sort of debate is healthy. Let the best argument win.
It occurs to me that you have not understood my arguments of why some sort of God is necessary. I hope to answer all your questions in the last post and clarify some physics terminology in the beginning that might have been difficult. I will recreate them for the last time here; they take very long to write. I hope you read this.
First of all, we know that two very real theories in physics defines everything that happens in our universe. They are quantum electrodynamics and gravity. We have a theory that will unite these two into one single theory of the whole universe which is called string theory. Depending on whether we use string theory or not, we get two different sets of axioms that basically define our universe.
Firstly, let me say that causality or as you said “cause and effect” is the single one rule that has always worked. It is a universal rule. It always has applied in physics and all our experiments verify this rule no matter what. You said it was just a instinct that was programmed. I tell you that all our physics tell us this is the only universal rule that works no matter what theories we use.
Now, I ask you to perform a thought experiment. Causality implies that our universe moves through time following certain laws. What does that mean for the type of universe we live in then? It means that either our universe has always existed, i.e. our universe in infinite in time, or that our universe itself is was started by something else that has always existed for infinite time.
Notice, as a physicist I am considering both possibilities. Nobody pretends to understand how this universe/ multiverse could possibly be infinite in anything. Personally, I consider that you have to put an infinite in something outside this universe, i.e. God. Nonetheless, I am not assuming this yet.
Continuing, depending on whether we use string theory to unite our two theories of quantum electrodynamics and gravity or decide not to unite our theories, we get two different rules.
Say we don’t use string theory. Then at the moment of the big bang, our two theories turn into spaghetti and we realize that before that point our theories just don’t apply. We have a beginning of our universe including a starting point for our universe. In this case, our universe is finite, something infinite in time created it.
Or better yet, using physics term, God is not bound by the dimension of time. This makes it such that He does not have a beginning or end.
Say, we do use string theory. Then there is a very, very slight chance that our universe is infinite in time but we get determinism that proves that our Universe can’t exactly be randomly selected as the trajectory of the evolution of the universe has already been preset. We need something to determine the set trajectory. Notice, most physicists settle for a universe defined by string theory but finite in time nonetheless.
Alberto, I am not being intellectually dishonest. Nor am I afraid of mysterious things such that I have created another mystery. Rather, Alberto, I am analyzing this exactly as a physicist would. In fact, I am one. It seems to me that you are the one that is scared of the mystery of God. I ask you not to ignore your rationale though. Use it to guide you.
In Islam, we are not so aggressive in evangelizing as the Christians are. Our religion is not based on faith. It is based on reason. Nonetheless, I implore you to read our Quran that you may at least have a broader exposure to our culture. Please read it in such a way that you may give it some respect. Read the interpretative texts so that unlike Peter, I don’t have to give you a lesson in some verse after you have read it.
And peace on those who choose guidance.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
We believe in the GOLDEN RULE: “Do unto others as as they would do unto you;
“But Do It First”
Dick
Milton, DE. USA
July 11th, 2009 at 4:25 am
To Dick
the problem with your attitude is : how are you going to make sure that you will always manage to do it first.
Maybe you are an admirer of the Romans who were said that after completely destroying Carthage “they made a desert and called it peace”
Alberto
July 11th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Dear Saad
I read the Quran. Unfortunately its message did not resonate much with me. It is clearly a misogynous book where women are made subservient to men.
There are plenty of exhortations to the followers of the faith to smother their enemies (understandable at a time when wars were a yearly occurrence).
There are also plenty of exhortations to the faithfuls to surrender themselves unconditionally to the will of the Almighty.
Unfortunately these are all concepts that go very much against my way of thinking.
I found much greater wisdom in a book written at a much earlier time, around 300 B.C. It is “On the Nature of Things” by Lucretius. I recommend that you read it.
To come to the issues you touched upon when talking about physics let me say that you are much too quick to make spurious causal connections and assume that these connections are truths.
You say that if the Big Bang is true then obviously our universe had a finite starting point. No problem with that, although that starting point is a singularity therefore its nature is unknowable. You then say that in this case our universe is finite ( I am not sure about that since the jury is still out on the possibility that the universe will go on expanding forever; is an asymptotic expansion finite or infinite ?).
You finally state as a truth that by necessity something infinite in time created this finite universe.
A finite beginning of a finite universe does not imply that something infinite in time created it. The second statement is mere speculation. There is no logical connection between the two statements nor any causal nexus.
If your physics theory leads you to believe that the universe had a finite beginning that is fine, but that is also it, you simply do not know what caused this beginning.
Some theorists speculate that the universe came out of nothing.
Many reputable physicists ( Roger Penrose being one of them ) are very skeptical of string theory because its origin is purely mathematical, at present it is neither verifiable nor falsifiable and no predictions can come out of it.
My main problem however is that you seem to take for granted that infinities are real. They are not.
Even numbers are not entities with an independent reality.
Cantor demonstrated that there are infinities bigger than other infinities, infinities that can subsume many other infinities.
Such mathematical demonstrations do not make these abstract concepts any more real.
The fact that we can create new concepts in our mind does not necessarily lend reality to these concepts.
Numbers, infinities, zero, even the concept of “nothing” are all only useful tools created by our mind to help us better understand the reality around us, but none of these concepts have an independent reality of their own outside our mind.
You may imagine in your mind the existence of a being not bound by time but that doesn’t make such a being real.
None of our physical laws requires or depends on the existence of a being not bound by time.
If you want to believe in the existence of a being not bound by time of course you can do that but yours is just a leap of blind faith not a logical deduction derived from the reality around you.
All the attempts made over the centuries to logically demonstrate
the necessity of the existence of God have always failed.
I recommend to you not to persist in a doomed endeavour.
Alberto
July 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
… Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it. (Surat an-Nisa’, 82)
Remember Allah the Almighty is not and something inside something, but everything is within .creator’s power, knowledge, control and hold.
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur’an, 51:47)
Knowing the Almighty exclusively depends on submitting, humility, patience, repentance, taqwa (Allah’s consciousness, righteousness. Walking away from perverted acts is the key to success & peace inside.
Remember, it brings success & peace to repent, be humble, even if one stays away from perversion, sins. The messenger (may be peace be upon him) was pure and did ibadah more than any else, still repented to Allah, the Almighty. He was humble.
Read the Quran and submit, and find your connection to the one and only one. May Allah forgive us all, and may Allah give us all the light to submit to the one and one one. Aameen.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
It is God Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that God has power over all things and that God encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Surat at-Talaq: 12)
We believe that there are radio waves around because we can listen to the talk on a device, though we cannot see it.
We believe there are television carrier waves because we can see the picture, though we don’t see the waves.
We believe in the wireless cells in the space because we can talk on the cell phones.
We cannot answer who created it, but we know it happened by some previous push.
So much structure, organization, can also not happen without any previous push.
That existence of push does not depend on time, space, or the logic that emanates from the constraints of our minds.
Why does it have to be necessary that our mind should be able to answer all questions, when it is fundamentally a creation of the eternal push? It is fundamentally, hierarchically, in the position of the radio waves, cells, television carrier waves, though with intelligence and life.
But the hierarchical position introduces a constraint, bias.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
We use a principle of accepting everything else in our lives, if an irrefutable evidence exists.
We send people to gallows, electric chair based on the same principle, the irrefutable evidence.
We let go a person as innocent on the same principle.
We should use the same principle in accepting the ultimate truth, the Quran, or rejecting it, otherwise it amounts to double standards, selective attitude, preconceived notion based thinking, putting the cart ahead of the horse, familial pressure, social pressure, dishonesty.
The fact is there are so many intelligent people accepting Islam, not based on simple faith, but the real evidence.
Once we acknowldge the evidence, then the faith builds up through the best practices, which the Quran and the authentic traditions teach us.
The benefit of Islam is not through mere words,but accepting it in deed.
Talk is cheap, Islam is only useful if one is able to walk away from perversion, distractions, walk into helping others, orchestrating implementation of good plans beneficial to society, to earn rewards to earn rewards from the one who created us, and not to show off or earn reputation or pomp.
Forgive others from the heart, even if you hated the person, to earn rewards from the one who made you.
Exercise patience in the face of anger, and do what is the right thing, exercise righteousness, only to earn rewards from the one who made you.
If you really shun perversion, gazing at women or men, not indulge, submit, then we see the benefit of being a Muslim, inner peace, serenity.
Ask Allah to give us with blessing only other wise give what is good for us, and give us contentment. This is the kind of attitude of a Muslim.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
To Alberto:
If your impressions of the Quran are that it is a “misogynous book where women are made subservient to men” then you have obviously not read the book. I ask you this question then, who are you trying to fool?
I may as well say have said here that I have read Lucretius but you see that would be a lie because I haven’t.
Alberto, I also see you did not even bother reading my last post. I take that as an offense because I wrote that post specifically addressed to you. All your comments have already been answered.
You are worried about an infinity. The truth is that causality necessarily implies an infinity. Just keep on asking the question where does this come from? and then where does that come from? My logic is pretty clear. You have to put an infinity somewhere, either inside the universe, i.e. the universe has existed forever, or outside it, i.e. something that has existed forever created our universe.
I did not assume big bang created our universe. I assumed that unless we unite our theories of quantum electro and gravity into string theory, at the big bang and an interval after it, our equations don’t work. It’s not a singularity. Who’s making the jumps of logic?
If we do assume string theory, we get a different paradigm already answered.
Alberto, it seems to me that you more than you realize, you are acting much like the Christian fundamentalist, without reason, argument or logic. This argument has collapsed into just that. I as a physicist am arguing pure physics, and you are worried about an infinity.
Seeing that I have already answered all your questions in the previous post, I see no more reason to proceed.
July 12th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I am a dyed in the wool atheist. I was born into a Chistian background and saw the fallacy in faith. It is disingenuous and harmful to peace when people claim that Islam is inherently a violent religion but violence in Christianity is antithetical to Christ. According to the New Testament, in Matthew I believe Christ purports that to marry a divorce woman is adultery. Also that he did not come to change any old Judiac laws but to enforce them. That is the reason why till today that Catholic does not allow abortion but employs specious reasoning to coax couples who should not be married, who cannot remain married to stay married.
Also the progress the West has made has not been due to the Judeo- Christanic culture but in spite of it. It has been made because we separated religion and state. Galileo was persecuted by the Church as were other intellectuals over the era. The chuch till today does not help enforce safe-sex in Africa. What then is the difference between them and the women beating taliban.
Most of the scientists during and after the Enlightenment were agnostic, atheist or rationalists despite their faith. So were Avicenna and Avveroes, muslims, but advocates of rationalism. Neither of the 3 monotheistic faiths apply rationalism to their own doctrines. Mohamad was a pragmatist and practised realpolitik in the world of 7 century Arabia. Yet in countless sayings he is a n advocate of peace so i suggest you research his life more. What muslim have to realize is alongside the Jews and their prophets is that he was but a mortal in 7th century arabia and great leader of his people, but those practises cannot be applied today. All the three faith traditions need to reinterpret their faith with the changing times. A secular, rationalist outlook is the only way for a forseeable future.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I am a dyed in the wool atheist. I was born into a Chistian background and saw the fallacy in faith. It is disingenuous and harmful to peace when people claim that Islam is inherently a violent religion but violence in Christianity is antithetical to Christ. According to the New Testament, in Matthew I believe Christ purports that to marry a divorce woman is adultery. Also that he did not come to change any old Judiac laws but to enforce them. That is the reason why till today that Catholic does not allow DIVORCE but employs specious reasoning to coax couples who should not be married, who cannot remain married to stay married.
Also the progress the West has made has not been due to the Judeo- Christanic culture but in spite of it. It has been made because we separated religion and state. Galileo was persecuted by the Church as were other intellectuals over the era. The chuch till today does not help enforce safe-sex in Africa. What then is the difference between them and the women beating taliban.
Most of the scientists during and after the Enlightenment were agnostic, atheist or rationalists despite their faith. So were Avicenna and Avveroes, muslims, but advocates of rationalism. Neither of the 3 monotheistic faiths apply rationalism to their own doctrines. Mohamad was a pragmatist and practised realpolitik in the world of 7 century Arabia. Yet in countless sayings he is a n advocate of peace so i suggest you research his life more. What muslim have to realize is alongside the Jews and their prophets is that he was but a mortal in 7th century arabia and great leader of his people, but those practises cannot be applied today. All the three faith traditions need to reinterpret their faith with the changing times. A secular, rationalist outlook is the only way for a forseeable future.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I agree with you William.
Alberto
July 13th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Ti William
I wish to add that for certain Jesus Christ did not want to be a Christian, he only wanted to be a good Jew.
I view Muhammad the same way as you do. He was a very successful 7th century leader who made a clever use of religion to unite the Arab tribes.
It is something pretty similar to what the Byzantine emperor Justinian did when he declared the Christian religion to be the state religion of his empire.
Just human politics, and it is really very very sad that so many people have been so thoroughly brainwashed that they still believe that there is more to it than just politics.
Alberto
July 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
William,
Like Alberto, I do agree with you. Rationalism is the only way to go. The only fallacy is that you assume that islam does not incorporate rationalism into its doctrines. While this is partially true of Sunnis, nearly all Shias are rationalist, like Averroes or Avicenna. Even the Sunnis have fused rationalism with theology to produce something called Ash’ari belief (which is the majority Sunni belief) which incorporates rationalist ideals.
This is not weird as rationalism first originated from the Muslim world.
July 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Dear Saad
I assure you I did read the Quran.
When in a book you find the statement that the testimony of a woman is worth only a quarter of the testimony of a man it is clear that the writer thinks that a woman is worth only a quarter of a man. Of course this matches the idea that a man can have four wives. Isn’t that misogyny ? I.e. putting down women as inferior to men.
The ancient Celts did practice equality between the sexes and they explained it with a beautiful expression ” Women hold up the other half of the sky”
With regards to physics I am not worried about infinities.
I have been really trying to explain that even logic has its limits.
The statement that we have to put an infinity either inside or outside the universe may sound logic but you should not confuse logic with reality.
As human beings we can imagine a lot of things : zeros, imaginary numbers, infinities, nothings, eternities and so on.
However as human beings who are finite in space and time, we know that all these ideas that have been created by our logical mind are simply ideas with no independent reality of their own.
These ideas have come to exist in our minds as the logical opposite of the things we actually experience in our reality;
we only experience a finite world but we can idealize an infinite one; we only experience finite time but we can idealize eternity.
Infinities, eternities are only ideas and to believe that they are real is just a leap of faith not an inescapable conclusion dictated by logical necessity.
To restate the issue in different way : following logical necessity you may end up with a zero in a mathematical calculation but you know that that zero is just an idea because zeros do not exist in nature or in the real world.
I hope I have been clear this time.
Alberto
July 14th, 2009 at 7:46 am
I went through the whole blog.you people keep on talking about God and universe . Why?because human heart wants to know
it’s creator. To know the creator one should seek deligently,God will answer them.The Book of all books inspired by God was written over a period of 1500 years by 40 different people one theme it is about Gods spoken word Jesus ,from Genesis to Revelations.The holy Book Bible is the Gods guide to human living.If any one rejects it and accepts anything else as Gods Word he is accepting alie in exchange for the Absolute truth.So people accept the truth,and truth will set you free.I Ask God the almighty to open your and see His perfect plan and receive His spoken Word through His written Word.by shabbah
July 14th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Dear Shabbah
thank you for your advice but I never understood what your truth is supposed to set me free from.
In fact it is just the opposite. It is only after all notions of Gods and Divinities and their words are rejected that there is freedom.
Certainly not the freedom to do anything you want but for sure intellectual freedom.
Alberto
July 14th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
This article makes little sense. Abderrahman’s comment to Jafferson, if true, has no authenticity in Islamic theology. When you look at the major scriptures of all major faiths, you will find verses that can be taken out of context and used by the extremists or fundamentalists for their own agendas (political, social economical). Let us take a few examples:
1. In the Hindu scriptures, Bhagavad Gita, Krishna advises the Pandava brothers to fight and kill their cousin brothers as their duty. Does it make the Hindu faith irrational, or violent? Most certainly not.
2. In the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament), in the Book of Deuteronomy, Jews are asked to wipe out the whole village, kill all their menfolk and take their women captives including all their possessions. Does this make Judaism irrational or violent? Most certainly not.
Likewise, there are verses that canbe taken totally out of context also from the Koran and used by extremists for their own agenda.
Now, let us look at the following facts:
Islamic empire ruled for a very long time under the following rulers:
661-750 Umayyads
750-1258 Abbasids and after that by several rulers culminating into Ottoman empire that lsted into the beginning of the 20th.century.
Apart from this, Islam ruled for centuries in Spain.
Now, reply me this:
1. During the whole of this period, did Muslims create any Holocaust against Jews or Christiians?
2. Did Muslims go for any crusades murdering and pillaging innocent men, women and children of both Christian and Jewish faith?
3. Did Muslims snatched children from black parents and chained them into slavery, far away from their homes?
4. Did Muslim rulers force indigenous natives to accept Islam and crearted schools were the native children were forced to accept Islam?
5.. Did Jews and Christians not flourish in Islamic Spain and other places?
6. Did Islam not provide wonderful opportunities to the “People of the Book” to learn and publish their works? Do we not have exampless of great Jewish scholars and Christian scholars who floourished and produced their works?
It does not serve you and your faith well to insult the prophet of Islam. Muslims have never blasphemed against any prophets and revere tghem all.
You need to educate yourself a little more.
I am not surprized BBC allows this kind of balderdash to be published in its website.
I feel sorry for you.
H.Hakhim
July 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
In Islam there are cases where a female witness is acceptable but a male witness may not be acceptable
There is one reference in the Quran where the female has higher weight than the male witness:
24: 6-9
The only reference in the Quran that equates two female witnesses to one male is 2:282
The passage is specific to testimony on a specific type of financial transaction that is of borrowing money. The reason for variation in the number of male and female witnesses required is given in the passage; in case she errs; no reference is made to inferiority or superiority .
Witness weight is not unequal for bequest or in case of divorce.
I think it is dangerous to speak loosely half the story. I have been reading and learning about the Quran for so long, even I cannot claim I know it.
The Quran is full of wisdom. Scholars have spent their lives studying it.
It is unfortunate people with superficial exposure to the Quran text with translation feel so confident in saying they know the Quran.
Knowing one verse does not tell you the whole story.
It was revealed according to the messenger’s life experience over the 23 years.
The followers saw him many a times when the Quran was being sent down on him.
The followers are witness when Gabriel taught him the message.
It is not from an ordinary, that almost every who saw him, sooner or later testified that he cannot be anyone but the messenger of the Almighty.
July 14th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Oh yes, I forgot. I should have also said did Islam in their rule for about 1000 years create any Apartheid rule using scriptures as their guide?
Did Islamic rule ever stop Chritians from visiting ane performing pilgrimage to the holy lands?
And if all what you Alberto and others have said is true about Islam, why is Islam then fastest growing faith?
July 14th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
People who saw him when he was baby, kid or young including his nanny, friends, nephew, neighbors, wife, former boss, accepted him as the messenger of Allah, and the Quran to be the word of God.
Please understand that it ignorance to make loose comments about the Quran without deep understanding.
Also, please do not brush with the whole thing with one stroke and say I have read it, and say things about the messenger of Allah, without deep understanding of the traditions, and the Quran.
July 14th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
To Alberto:
You stated that you have read the Quran. Then you went on to state that a woman is worth only a fourth of what man is worth because her testimony is regarded as such and because men can marry four wives. Perhaps, Alberto, you should reconsider whether you have indeed read the Quran.
See, I really don’t know how to talk to people who would like to invent their realities. Or would rather project the invented fallacies of Christian fundamentalist on to actual reality.
Either way, the Quran says that women and men and in fact all of humanity is equal in front of God except by what their righteousness differentiates them by. No where does it say that a woman’s testimony is a fourth of a man’s. And permission to marry four is given only under strict regulations. The prescribed standard is one wife which was pretty radical an idea as no holy scripture (except the Quran) encourages its followers to marry only one. That is why although western society is supposedly monogamous, it is discreetly polygamous, while Muslim culture might be theoretically polygamous, it is practically monogamous (as most people take only one wife/ sexual partner).
Alberto, I do agree with your assessment that logic has its boundaries. The difference is that good logic knows its boundaries. I know I can’t project my ideas of causality past this universe (where they have been verifiably observed) to outside the universe where they have not been verified. Thus, the question ‘what caused God’ or ‘how long has God existed’ are stupid because God does not exist inside the time or space of our universe so causality nor time bind him.
I ask you to use your logic to guide you. Be fair. Don’t come at this with your mind already made up, that God does not exist. Before you may have been arguing with Christians who just spewed religious texts at you. Now you are arguing with a Muslim. We will use logic and rationality. When you use logic to explain to the Christians why their text is wrong, they tell you that logic is not always reality. Now, that I use logic to tell you why my faith is right, will you use their same arguments?
July 14th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Your article, “Western Vs. Islamic Philosophy - Venus and Mars” makes little sense. Abderrahman’s comment to Jafferson, if true, has no authenticity in Islamic theology.
When you look at the major scriptures of all major faiths, you will find verses that can be taken out of context and used by the extremists or fundamentalists for their own agendas (political, social economical).
Let us take a few examples:
1. In the Hindu scriptures, Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna advises the Pandava brothers to fight and kill their cousin brothers as their duty. Does it make the Hindu faith irrational, or violent? Most certainly not.
2. In the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament), in the Book of Deuteronomy, Jews are asked to wipe out the whole village, kill all their men folk and take their women captives including all their possessions. Does this make Judaism irrational or violent? Most certainly not.
Likewise, there are verses that can be taken totally out of context also from the Koran and used by extremists for their own agenda.
Now, let us look at the following facts:
Islamic empire ruled for a very long time under the following rulers and was the largest empire the world had ever seen.
661-750 Umayyads
750-1258 Abbasids and after that by several rulers culminating into Ottoman Empire that lasted into the beginning of the 20th.century.
Apart from this, Islam ruled for centuries in Spain.
Now, reply me this:
1. During the whole of this period, did Muslims create any Holocaust against Jews or Christians?
2. Did Muslims go for any crusades murdering and pillaging innocent men, women and children of both Christian and Jewish faith?
3. Did Muslims snatched children from black parents and chained them into slavery, far away from their homes?
4. Did Muslim rulers force indigenous natives to accept Islam and created schools were the native children were forced to accept Islam?
5.. Did Jews and Christians not flourish in Islamic Spain and other places?
6. Did Islam in their rule for about 1000 years create any Apartheid rule using scriptures as their guide?
7. Did Islamic rule ever stop Christians from visiting and performing pilgrimage to the holy lands?
8. Did Islam not provide wonderful opportunities to the “People of the Book” to learn and publish their works? Do we not have examples of great Jewish scholars and Christian scholars who flourished and produced their works?
9. And if you claim that you have read history, did you then not read that the early caliphate in Islam (under Caliph Ali 656-661 CE) Islam fought agianst extremism inIslam, defeated them and they are known as the “Khaarijites”, meaning those who are outside the pale of Islam.
10. And if you claim that you have read the Koran, then have you not read the clear declaration in the Koran that Muslims have been created to be moderates and take balanced-path (see Q2:143)
It does not serve you well to insult the prophet of Islam. Muslims have never blasphemed against any prophets and revere them all.
And you should also know the fundamental truth that the ideology of viiolence can never ever survive. Any violent ideology from extreme factions does not represent Islam and belongs to the dustbin of histrory.
And if all what you have said in your article and others have said is true about Islam, why is Islam then fastest growing faith?
You need to educate yourself a little more.
I am not surprised BBC allows this kind of balderdash (even as an advertisement) to be published in its website.
I truly feel sorry for you and truly hope that you will involve yourself in inter-faith dialogue to promote peace in the troubled world of ours.
H. A. Khim
July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
The answer to your questions is the Ottoman Empire. An interesting answer for number 5, either jews or christians flourished “during” that period (or after for that matter) but the Islamic reign did create (after the Inquisition has done killing everyone) an interesting culture which was a big part of Renaissance. Cordoba is very good example, lest we forget that Seneca was born there, so the claim that بنو أمية, Banu Umayyah has created a new culture from “sand” is not entirely accurate.
Also interesting their (ottomans) use of people of other faiths which “they saved” from the Inquisition only to have them working for free. The greeks, jews and christians have modernized the Ottoman Empire,… and there were happy because they were “tolerated” and allowd to practice their faith. With this they revolutionized politics. Tolerate all religions and you’ll have less headaches governing.
The point here is the fact that we as people should not try to have a dialog were we want to prove that our faith is better or worse, but one in which we should try to emphasis the riches of our cultures and how one culture completes another. Our faith is part of us,…No one can extract it and replace it with something else.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Saad,
I would like to tell you that having travelled extensively in the muslim world , despite being a staunch atheist has given me much insight into the muslim world and history.
Being born to a Catholic mother, I have also great insight into Christian theology. There are charlatans out there such as Rush Limbaugh and others who claim that the success of the West has been due to its Christo-Judaic values.
I resent that. Christianity if anything has stunted intellectual growth and hindered science at every turn of the road. It was because brilliant men such as Jefferson and various engligtened monarchs in Europe who allowed free speech and eventually when the commonfolk stripped away all the powers of the clergy and the hereditary monarchies, was there anything of a free society in Europe and North America. It was because we efficiently separated church and state that we succeeded and it was precisely that inablity to question ones religion and governments that plagues at least most Sunni muslims today. Shiites are much better in the sense that they actively engage in Ijtihaad, the inbuilt mechanism of evolution in Islam. Had we not stunted the powers of the chuch, we would still be living in a barbaric europe dominated by pompous pederasts(bishops).
As a personal example, Christ as displayed by the Christians is a pitiful example of morality. If someone sues you, you cannot defend yourself, if someone attacks you, you must endure it. On the other hand, he openly endorses the same Judaic laws as Moses before him. In contrast Mohammad is a much better example of realism, openness towards women, towards sex, conflict execution and conflict resolution, peace and mysticism. Yet he can hardly be seen as a perfect example today. He was but a man of the 7th century and a good leader of his people. He can be revered but it is a problem when even the slightest criticism of hm causes one to flee for his or her life. This godlike reverence of him from what i have read was not his way, and he would be dissapointed to see his people become so petty and vengeful. However the muslims after him were much better to the people they conquered that any other ruler in history be they Mongol, Crusader, Alexander or Rome. The muslims were world pioneers in historical scrunity when they scrunitized Mohammads hadeeth collections. Compared to the extravagant lies of the Greek and Roman historians, such as Homer and Plutarch thiswas a refreshingly new take on history. They also led the world in sciences. In Islam too, the rationalists argued tooth and nail with the Asharai traditionalists. Unfortunately in the end the traditionalist won out and muslim thought stagnated for over 500 years. Therefore muslims must again look to the footsteps of their illustrious ancestors and critique their religious views and their relevance today. Then only can they join the rest of the World and help advance human learning and life, to which they themselves had contributed earlier. If not unfortunately they wil be marginalized and overtaken by all other cultures and left choking in the dust. Lets hope demagogues like Pat Robertson and Geert Wilders dont see their warped visions of Islam become a reality.
July 18th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Some very good points here, one should further read books by Robert Spencer, where you will find out that the so called crusaders were actually defensive wars to stop the invaders (Muslims) who came into area such as, Europe, ie France, Spain, than ME, Syria, Iran, Egypt, ect from Saudia Arabia .later India where Muslims killed off the aboriginals from those areas who were mainly Christians, Jews and Hindus, Pagans. The main problem with Islam is that you do not have separation of Church (Mosque) and State. Islam is a facist ideology where it intrudes in your evey day life and there seems to be no shut off valve, but dictators and thugs seem the ones to control them in the ME.
July 18th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
H. A. Khim l read some your questions, and you really need to read Robert Spencer’s books. Slavery flourished under Muslim rule and even now in parts of Africa and ME countrys. please the Koran, it will answer your questions if you are honest with yourself.
Jews and CHristians did not flourish under Muslim rule, only if you think being a 2nd class citizen which required that you a head tax, ie jizzya. Please look into how Christians are treated in ME islamic countries such as the Copts in Egypt.
Lastly Islam is not the fastest growing religion, it is Christianity. And ask why are those who leave Islam in Islamic countries called “apposates” and are killed when they are found. You have freedom in the West that my ancestors faught for. l do not take them lightly.
ps if l call your Muhammud a thief, murderer, child rapist, would l be wrong? why would l follow such a man? if you want to remain an islamic appologist that is your feedom to do so, but here in the West we have a choice.
July 18th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I have read some of Robert Spencers books and unfortunately I was not impressed. I laud him for his honesty without regards to political correctness. The crusades actually were a defensive response after Islamic hordes had overrun 4 of christendoms most holiest cities. The reason I have little respect for Spencer is that he is loathe to admit or even defends Christianity while criticizing Islam for the same evils. That is intellectual dishonesty and manipulations. Since the beginning of Christendom, pagans and heretical Christian sects such as Arianism were conquered. The cathars were massacred later in the 13th century, It was reported that one of the monks said Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.” — “Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own.” The Bible openly states that those who deny Christ will be as twigs who are collected and burnt in hell (to fuel it). I respect other atheists such as Christopher Hitchens because at least they underline the atrocities committed by all religions in the name of God.
Second, he often uses the writings of certain Maliki jurists to show that Islamic spain was intolerant. What about Martin Luthers Von den Jüden und iren Lügen, On the Jews and their lies, which openly advocates killing Jews. Even though islamic spain and islamic india were far from pluralistic havens, they were still better off than the barbaric europeans run by annointed pederasts.
Nearly all religions are inherently dangerous and should be either highly marginalized, reformed or discarded. To state that Christianity does not support dogmatism and violence while Islam does is duplicitous and bigoted. However i stand by my personal view that Mohamad is a much better example of a religious patriarch of his people than the Christian Jesus. The Christians insult Jews and other sects by attributing divine miracles to Jesus. Had Jesus truly resurrected people or walked on water, he would not have died a lonely, betrayed man of 33 deserted by all save the women whom he probably had some sexual relations with, and who actually did stay loyal to him till the end. I can never countenance the misogyny of Christianity and its prudish views of sexuality. Nay, Mohammad was a realist and cherished women and sex. Yet to show this 7th century tribal leader as above all others is a fallacy of the worst kind similar to showing Christ to be a divinity.
July 18th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I love how Christians dig deep and awkward, not to mention, selective, to support their message of hate. Muhammed never had thought his people to take on others as slaves, or any of the garbage told in here. This is clearly a sorry attempt to rewrite history. however, this is not the first time people like this guy went after Islam, and it will not be the last, so let them be, as they wish to be, rude, racist and jealous of the ever growing philosophy of Islam. Peace be with all.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Mohammad was a realist and cherished women and sex. Yet to show this 7th century tribal leader as above all others is a fallacy of the worst kind similar to showing Christ to be a divinity.
please this man was a thief, murderer, rapist and child molester.
his last words on earth was to go out and kill all Jews, which btw
is in the Koran. l can quote here passages from the Koran, to prove what Robert and others say about this facist cult. Perhaps you might look at the works of an Egyptian cleric who is a Coptic Christian, Father Botros, he wants to help the Muslim people who have been mislead by this evil cult their prophet invented.
July 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
To William:
First of all, let me thank you for not being so biased as the others on this forum. I do agree with a majority of what you said, although I also know that there are a sizable minority amongst the Sunnis, the Hanbalis, that do ijtihad and consider it a duty to do so.
Perhaps, the only thing you said that I disagreed with was when you wrote that “to show this 7th century tribal leader as above all others” is a fallacy.
See the way we look at it is that principles, both religious and moral, are unchanging. The way this man, Muhammad (PBUH), acted, in essence his principles, is a model for us today. If times have changed, then maybe the application of these principles may change but not the principles themselves. Thus, we have a model in Muhammad of how these principles should be applied.
Do we consider Muhammad better than everybody else? Well, it is quite sad if in some places we have started to do so. Actually, Muhammad (PBUH) himself said that we should not distinguish between any of the Prophets. In all the Prophets of God from Abraham, Moses, Jesus to Muhammad, we have a model to follow. The fact is that the rest of these people don’t have very much reliable historical material left. We take the historical material left of Muhammad with scrutiny.
Having said that, we did not stagnate for 500 years. Clearly the issue is not how we have not been able to apply our religious principles. The Ottomans did a good job until just 100 yrs ago. What brought us down was brutal European colonialism who did not care how ruthless they were or could be. Had the Ottomans been that ruthless in Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, do you really think that after 300 years of Ottoman rule, these places would be Christian? How about Lebanon (until the 1900s), India, etc? And who says that it was good for us not to force conversions. If you are to look at it from an moral-less perspective, it would have been good for our civillization if we had forced conversions. We didn’t because we care about the principles of our religion. Where the Europeans had such nature of control for so long, they forced conversions and a majority Christian region.
And every civillization has had its ups and downs. We are easily at our lowest down. That is a law, everything that goes up must eventually come down. But does this mean that we should tap dance for the West and change the nature of our religious laws so that it is in better taste with what the Europeans want? Do you think that just because you Europeans want, we should become secular?
The Europeans also talk about how we don’t like taking criticisms of Muhammad. But how is it that you guys don’t restrain your own people (like Louise JP) from making hateful speeches. Louisse has blurted out so much trash already I don’t know how to respond. And to think that the BBC advertises these sort of blogs which quite frankly are so grossly biased that it is disgusting. Don’t you think that perhaps you guys should have a few things to clean up as well before you tell us what is wrong with us?
Sorry for the rant.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:46 am
To William:
It seems to me that you do have a much more comprehensive understanding of islam than the other people on this forum. I thank you for at least being fair to us. Your informed opinion is a refreshing change from the Christian fundamentalists.
Having said that, I do dispute your point that Sunni people don’t do ijithad while the Shias do. This is not correct. I think you are confusing different things, rationalism with ijtihad. Although one would think, intuitively, they should be related, they are not.
The Shias are rationalists which means that they use philosophy and other non-textual reason-based sources to develop their theology. Their interpretation of the Quran is often crossed with philosophical ideas, both Aristotelan and Platonic. They do not, however, engage in ijtihad. They are, in fact quite stagnant with respect to doing ijtihad because the words of their imams are written in stone. They do not believe in changing them.
Amongst the Sunnis, you have the Asharis and the Atharis (Hanbalis). The rationalists fought hard against the Atharis (Hanbalis). This ideological battle took place just within 200 years after the death of the Prophet. The Hanbalis were the majority and retained their majority hold. The Atharis (Hnabalis) believed that things which were ucnlear in the Quran and whose interpretaion was not based in the religious texts should not be interpreted at all.
Then the Asharis came along. They used reason, philosophy, etc to show why the interpretation of such unclear things could never be resolved. i.e. The Quran says that in God’s hands is all good. What does it mean by God’s hands? Anwser: for Athari/Ashari: Nobody knows. For ratioanlist: his power/might/ownership/etc. They created an intellectual rationale for the orthodox interpretation of the Atharis often using philosophy and rationale to prove their point. The Atharis were not happy because the irony was their original battle with the rationalists was just over how philosophy should not be used in religion. They, the Atharis (Hanbalis) became the minority very quickly though as the Asharis absorbed both the rationalists and the Atharis.
With reagrds to ijtihad, the Hanbalis believe in doing it and have never stopped doing so. In fact, ibn Taymiya (big Hanbali) was famous for saying that it was obligatory on the muslim scholars to do ijtihad because as times changed so would the laws.
The rest of the Sunni world was kind of against the idea of ijtihad. They said that they would not deal with ijtihad at all. However, the truth is that all Sunnis have had to do so and have continued in doing so. They were embarassed by this reality but they continue to do so even today. Muslim scholars have admitted to this reality throughout the centuries (they are not happy about it). Now even the Deobandis in India, who are Ashari, do ijtihad openly.
You can check up everything I said. The reality is the Sunnis are the more flexible in changing. We use philosophy more conservatively though.
With regards to your statement that Muhmmad can not be regarded as the perfect example because he was from the 7th century, we say that principles are universal. The principles that Muhammad stood for are the principles we stand for. The application of these principles may change over time but the principles don’t. Muhammad was our model in the principles that he stood for and practiced.
It is true that Muhammad was but a man and he was not perfect because men are not perfect. He made mistakes in his life that God openly rebuked him for in the Quran. However, his life is a model in as so much of a man who lived the word of God in both letter and spirit.
With respect to the fact that we fell because we stagnated, I say that this does not have too much to do with the fact that we were not flexible enough. The Ottomans were Ashari/Sunni and they had all the tools to build a magnificent empire. It was rather because of the rule of God that everything that rises shall fall. All civillizations have their ups and downs. We are at our down. Part of the reason was because we lacked technology and when the Europeans came, they were brutal enough to do anything necessary to colonize us.
July 20th, 2009 at 11:23 am
You should consider a job as a cherry picker, you’ve certainly proved your skills of picking tidbits of facts (and presenting them out of context). Failing that, a burger flipper would do you nicely, seeing how you flips facts upside down. If that doesn’t do it, how about a clothing factory? Oh you can weave a story alright. Study history before commenting on it — but then again your purpose is not to state facts, is it? You couldn’t possibly be that ignorant of history. If you enjoy any enlightenment today it is thanks to the islam-inspired scholarly works and education that lit the enlightenment age for Europe. You really should ask yourself why are you presenting this non-realistic commentary to whoever happens to pass by, and maybe then you will enrich your life by applying some of that enlightenment to your own life. Best regards.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
To Saad,
I would like to begin by telling you that there is nothing more hypocritical than a Christian evagelist, who believes in the Old and the New Testament as a work of some God. Their depiction of Christ is one that is pathetic. They insult other religions of the Time by attributing divinity and divine miracles to Jesus. Had he walked on water or raised the dead, the Jews would have flocked to his banner along with Zoroastrian, Magians etc. Secondly he openly states in the New Testament that he did not come to abrogate but enforce ancient Judaic Law. Anyone who denies his divinity will be burnt in Hell. That is why the Catholic Church burnt heretics at the stake. That is why adultery and sexual orgies were brutally punished by the Puritans in the New World, who often denounced these sexual parites as witchcraft. They allowed no music, no dance, no work on Sabbath. Therefore the success of us humanists and secularist was in securing freedom of state from church. Make no mistake about it, had the catholic church the power, they would enforce a ban on gay marriages and abortion in every state they ruled.
lol.
As comes to Mohammad, his primary biographies by Ibn Eshaq and Tabari and the Ahadeeth yield the picture with many contradictions. Therefore Muslims, like the Christians need to debate his life and what they accept as gospel and what as plain history in an environment where other muslims dont threaten or harm them. This can only be achieved with the separation of Church and State. However, he forbade forced conversions, he forbade killing women and children in his own hadith, he was a great advocate of woman in his time. His first coverts were women, i.e. his aunts, his wife, freed slaves and the disempowered in society. His wife aisha supposedly said, that there was no man who had better sexual ethics than him. He did enjoy women and that is why I respect him more than the Christian Jesus. Christianity condones sex only for procreation. This narrow view of sexuality and human nature takes th joy out of life in many evangelical christians marriages. Mohammads friends in life were women, his wives, the downtrodden and his cousin Ali whom through mohammad is the spiritual ancestor for all of islamic sufism
As regards the hanbalis, Ahmed abn hanbal believed that the quran was an eternal thing while the rationalists such as Wasil ibn Ata quite rightly argued that essentially the quran was not eternal and a created thing. Hanbal was initially pesecuted but after the new caliph took over, it was the Mutazelites who suffered. Even though Hanbalis do ijtehad it doesnt yield much results because the Quran is made nearly impervious to scrutiny. The Shiites were good mujtahids but after hte advent Khomenei, conservatism and dogma seeped back in. Ibn Taymiyyah was another man who harmed muslims by his dogma. he advocated hardline practise of islam. Men such as Avicenna and Avveroes were pushed into the backstage as Ibn Kathir, Taymiyyah and Abdel Wahab took over. The muslims will need to deal with this very real threat, i.e domination of their faith by hardline puritans, before any effective attempt at criticism are to be made.
As a closing note I would like to add, I have many muslim friends. people who want a secular and progressive future for Islam. I have many friends who have also left islam because they felt they could not reform it. However I have heard arguments from sides. Yet in the end, mohammad stressed importance of learning nad using ones judgement and so does your koran, so let us hope reason and rationalism of Avveroes and Al Kindi win out.
regads to all, well maybe not the young earth creationists and Rush Limbaugh
July 21st, 2009 at 11:03 am
To WIlliam:
Thank you William. Your opinions are well-informed ones and I appreciate that. The biographies of Muhammad are very riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies and I will be the first one to admit that fact. They were written atleast 100-200years after the Prophet and in fact, the companions of the Prophet explicitly forbade people from writing down the sayings of the Prophet so that it would not contaminate the Quran or bring down the sacredness and centrality of the Quran.
You are right in that debate is necessary and in fact, I guess you are also right that the sort of debate that is needed is not going on at the moment. I feel though that this is more a result of us going into our shells during our era of being colonized so as to preserved our religion and stop it from being influenced by the Europeans. I guess others may have a different opinion but historically, before we were colonized, such debates were active in Mughal India and in the Ottoman empire.
You are also right that a seperation of church and state is necessary. In our own history, the reality has been that for us Sunnis, at least, the secularization of our government has been in place since Mamun. In fact, the whole struggle with Ahmad ibn Hanbal just proved that the Sunni caliph would and could never determine the religious laws, but that the religion would always be in the hands of the religious scholars while the political office would be a nonreligious one. This is unlike the nature of the Church which historically has been politically inclined.
This does not mean, however, that our laws are not going to be influenced by our religion. Our laws are not going to be based on the principles of European humanism but on the principles of Islam. This might not make you happy but I feel that this is not much different from the USA which bases its laws on the principles of Judeo-Christianity (supposedly).
You are also quite right that in Islam, sex is considered a good thing (as long as it is in marriage). Sex is meant to be for both pleasure and fun and is not restricted to procreation. I also like that.
With regards to the ibn Hanbal arguing that the Quran was eternal thing, you have to understand that the discussion is metaphysical and thus the conventional meanings of the word ‘created’ and ‘eternal’ do not apply. When the rationalists said the Quran was created, they were basically saying that it is created in the sense of the way that when the Quran says that the Quran is a speech of God, it was not literally a word of God because God cannot speak (he is not a physical being). Likewise, when Ahmad ibn Hanbal said that the Quran was eternal, he meant that because it says it is a speech of God, it is an attribute of Him. And the attributes of God could be timeless and eternal, not that the Quran did not have a beginning but that it was with God and not created in the sense of the way that we, humans, or the earth is created. Either way, the point was that an interpretation could not be made and should not be made. Imam Ashari reproduced the same points later in much more readable and understandable writing. I would recommend you read that.
You are also right that Shias were initially good mujtahids. But I disagree with you that it was Khomeini that made them stagnant. It was rather that after the disappearance of their twelfth imam, they became quite unwilling to create new laws or refine the laws that their imams had laid out for them. This is the opinion of a few western scholars that I have read as well, i.e. Vernon Egger. The Sunnis on the other hand, although trying not to do ijtihad did it anyways and they were reminded that even the most orthodox, rigid group, the Hanbalis, thought it to be mandatory. I’ve always found this to be quite ironic.
You are right that the Hanbalis, seem to be a very closed bunch of people. Their reputation precedes them. However, I feel that being fair, you have to consider that the most closed and rigid people were attracted to this school of thought and it was not a consequence of the fact that the Hanbali belief was not willing or ready to change but rather than the most closed stringent people were the first to accept it. The Hanbalis are recognized as the most orthodox and practicing school; they have always been a minority though. The people willing to accept their belief are the strictest adherents to islam, think Saudi Arabia. It is not that the Hanabli school is not willing to change. It is rather that the people who were attracted to the school were culturally ultra-closed.
I feel that Europeans will naturally be biased against ibn Taymiya and ibn kathir. However, I feel that ibn Taymiay was actually quite a huge reformer. He was very much against superstitious things, his logic is very clear, and his understanding and reasoning, I feel having read him, to be applicable to modern day world. He argued against much of the insane superstitions that palgued the Muslim world back then. Likewise, Abdul-Wahab gets a bad name, however, much of the criticisms against him, I feel, are pointless and historically incorrect.
Finally, you are right about reason and logic. Reason and logic are the tools we need to examine our religion. However, I feel though that al-Kindi’s and Avveroes heritage is quite alive in the Ashari school. The Asharis still engage in kalam that al-Kindi started. I find it quite ironic that you would support these people being atheist, when these people were some of the strongest die-hard believers in God and the first to try to prove his existence.
Anyways, fun talking to you. Regards.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Dear Saad,
you say ” I do agree with your assessment that logic has its boundaries. The difference is that good logic knows its boundaries.”
I agree with that.
You also say “I know I can’t project my ideas of causality past this universe (where they have been verifiably observed) to outside the universe where they have not been verified.”
And I agree with that too.
You then conclude ” Thus, the question ‘what caused God’ or ‘how long has God existed’ are stupid because God does not exist inside the time or space of our universe so causality nor time bind him.”
Where is the logic in this last statement ? Don’t you see that logic stops you to within this universe that you can see and that believing in anything beyond it ( i.e. any God ) is only an act of faith with which logic has nothing to do ?
I do hope that you can clear from your mind the fallacy that logic will help you to demonstrate the primacy of your faith or the existence of God.
Faith and logic never had nor ever will have anything in common.
Alberto
July 23rd, 2009 at 9:15 pm
To Louise JP
I feel compelled to correct your ignorance of how the Crusades came into being.
They were not defensive wars. They were truly wars of conquest sanctioned by the Pope who promised Paradise to those who killed Muslims and granted to the Crusaders ownership of the lands taken from the Muslims.
The main motive behind the Pope’s initiative was to put an end to the constant state of war between European kingdoms and to unite Christendom against the perceived threat of a Satanic religion.
Alberto
July 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Dear Alberto,
I feel that I don’t need to answer this question because I feel I already have answered it. Yet, I will do this one last time before I stop answering questions on this topic.
My statement that
”Thus, the question ‘what caused God’ or ‘how long has God existed’ are stupid because God does not exist inside the time or space of our universe so causality nor time bind him.”
were not meant to be take to be a logical step after I talked about good logic and causality but rather was a response to your comment that ‘what would have caused God, or how could God have come into existence?’
My argument never jumped to a conclusion of God. All I am saying is that causality makes it such that our universe has always existed or that something else created/caused it. The fact is that things not bound by causality are not bound by time either; that is a definition. And things not bound dimensionally by time are infinite in time. My logic is very clear. Either our universe/multiverse has always existed or something that has always existed created it.
That was my logic. I never did assume a God of my understanding. All I assumed was that there is a necessity of a first cause.
You said, “I do hope that you can clear from your mind the fallacy that logic will help you to demonstrate the primacy of your faith or the existence of God.”
I feel that you are quite biased. You have not been able to refute my logic which is very much based on what we know about our universe/multiverse depending on the physical theory used.
You also conclude that, “Faith and logic never had nor ever will have anything in common.”
You are right that for religions based on belief, like Christianity, logic can never be consistent with faith. Our religion, Islam, is quite the opposite. Our religion is based on reason. And our revelation is quite consistent with logic.
Saad.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
To Alberto:
This is what you said on July 10 which I responded to when I was talking about God not needing to be caused. You said:
“If you are intellectually honest then you have to ask “how God came into being ?”. Did the God that created the universe come into being by the agency of a bigger God before him ?”
I replied:
”Thus, the question ‘what caused God’ or ‘how long has God existed’ are stupid because God does not exist inside the time or space of our universe so causality nor time bind him.”
Hope that clarifies it.
Saad.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
By the way Alberto, I did read about Lucretius’s poem. And I kind of liked it. The only thing is that he does not anwser the questions of where this universe comes from. Having said that, he does use rationale very well, although I feel his primary assumptions are wrong.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Dear Saad
please reflect on your statement ” Either our universe/multiverse has always existed or something that has always existed created it.”
Such a statement is correct and it is as far as reason or logic can take us. The statement is also a dilemma that no logic can help us resolve. If we choose that our universe always existed the necessity for a first cause disappears.
But we can’t choose and I feel we will never be able to choose no matter how much more knowledge we will be able to acquire about physical laws.
Our reason has to acknowledge that we cannot resolve such a dilemma and it just leaves us in front of an unsolvable mystery.
That is why I am saying that no religion can claim to be based on reason.
Alberto
p.s. I promise this is my last contribution to this topic.
July 25th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
To Alberto:
Thank you for acknowledging the fact and moving on.
You said that, ” 1) Either our universe/multiverse has always existed or 2) something that has always existed created it.”
I feel that you stop a bit prematurely. Our physical theories do point at resolving the controversy. If we ignore string theory and don’t unify gravity and quantum em, we get that at the point of the big bang, our universe was created which is option 2. If we use string theory, we get option 1 but with the case that determinism enters the picture so God is necessary to determine initial conditions anyways. If you meant that we will never know which of these options is actually true, you are probably right because string theory is not testable yet. However, either way, you need some sort of God.
Having said that, I invite you to the truth of Islam, and the worship of the One God free from all association and resemblance with his creation. Please read the Quran with some level of interpretative texts. Have we not argued enough already?
You know there are some people who come into this argument to just stick by their viewpoint even though they obviously don’t know the whole picture. Why don’t you take the time off to go read a few islamic books or go to the masjid and ask for some guidance?
July 26th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Saad!
You urge Alberto to read the Koran.So,do I as the whole book can be read within a weekend and its horors reserved for the “unbelievers” and women are obvious for everyone to read .
Chapter 4 is about women and very misogynistic.
In 4:10 the Koran dictates “a male shall inherit TWICE as much as a female”!
In 4:34 we read:Men have authority OVER women because God has made the one (man) superior to the other (woman)and because they spend their wealth to maintain them”!In the west we accept women to be equal to men.
in 4:13 we read”If any of your women commit a lewd act,call in four witnesses from among yourselves against them.If they testify to their guilt confine them to their houses till DEATH overtakes them-thats SHARIA law and justice for Moslem women!
in 8:36 the Koran says”:Make war on unbelievers until idolatry shal cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme” thus proclaiming continuous Jihad against the world which started 1400 years ago and continues today with all of its horors!
In 8:41 we read:Know one-fifth of your spoils shall belong to god,THE APOSTLE,THE APOSTLE’S KINFOLK,the orphans,the destitute and the traveller in need”
So every body sees how well Mohammed wanted his descendents to be taken care of!
I could continue on and on with such quotations ,but I would be copying the whole Koran,so I urge the “Unbelievers” to read it and be prepared as to what the Koran and its followers have in store for them for 1400 years.This time though Islam will be come crushing down from within ,as the Soviet Union collapsed, as the women will revolt against the oppressive Sharia Law
August 2nd, 2009 at 6:42 pm
To Leonidas:
I don’t even feel the necessity to respond to you. Part of your quotations are outright fabrications, or taken out of context either within the text or the particular event.
Either way, you are right. I urge all non-believers to go read the Quran. It takes more than a weekend though. Please people, when you read the text use interpretative texts. It will take more than a weekend. Please don’t go online and just read what you want to read from a Christian website bashing islam like Leonidas has.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Saad!
In fact one can find the HATE taught to Muslims in the Koran in the following verses so reading the Koran can be done in a FEW HOURS without the distorting help of an “Interpreting text”!
1. Muslims CANNOT doubt the Koran (2:1)
2. Non-Muslim sex slaves are OK (Koran 4:23-24)
3. Non-Muslims are sworn enemies of Muslims and Islam (Koran 4:101)
4. Muslims are forbidden from having non-Muslims as friends (Koran 5:51)
5. Muslims have the holy duty to kill non-Muslims (Koran 9:5)
6. Only GUARANTEED way to enter “heaven” is to kill non-Muslims (Koran 9:111)
7. Muslims MUST terrorize non-Muslims (Koran 8:12)
8. Muslims can lie to non-Muslims to help Islam (Koran 3:28, 16:106)
9. Non-Muslims pick one: 1. Die, 2. Convert, 3. Pay Extortion Money to Live (Koran 9:29).
10. Non-Muslims are vile creatures deserving no mercy (Koran 98:6)
11. Wife beating is OK (Koran 4:34)
12. Marriage and divorce of children is OK (Koran 65:4)
13. Rape is OK, need 4 male Muslim witnesses for proof (Koran 24:13)
14. Robbery and theft of non-Muslims (Koran: Entire Chapter 8 called Booty)
15. When Koran conflicts, later verses cancel out earlier verses (Koran 2:106)
16. Mohammed at 51-years old married his child bride Aisha (6-years old).
17. Mohammed didn’t deflower her until he was 54 and she was 9.
18. In one day, Mohammed help behead (Koran 47:4, 8:12) between 600-900 Qurayza Jews in Medina in 627 A.D.
19. Only Mohammed had permission from Allah to marry as many wives as he wanted to (Koran 33:50).
20. To prove rape in Islamic law or Sharia law, Muslim females need four male Muslim
witnesses in good standing (Koran 24:13).
21. The Koran has 114 Chapters called Surahs and is not presented in chronological order,
but chapter length order, from longest (Chapter 1) to shortest (Chapter 114).
22. Many verses in the Koran conflict, so the concept of abrogation (Koran 2:106) applies. This means, later occurring verses cancel out the earlier verses.
23. The last chapter written in the Koran, Chapter 9, is extremely violent., nullifying ALL earlier peaceful passages.
24. Robbery and Theft of non-Muslim property is OK (The entire Chapter 8 of the Koran
is known as Booty or Spoils).
25. Muslims that leave Islam (apostacy) MUST be killed. (Bukhari 4:52:260) Quoting
Mohammed: “…if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.” Reply 6 replies · active 7 hours ago
So,here it is people ALL the hate and violence the koran has for Muslims and nonmuslims allke! Copy the above and discuss it with your family and friends.The EVIL of Islam in the KORAN must stop now.Do not use muslim oil and stop muslim immigration if we want democracy,our liberties and way of life to survive!
August 15th, 2009 at 6:30 am
To everyone reading this post:
Look at the unjustified hatred and islamophobia present in the west as is represented in the person of Leonidas. Leonidas above has done nothing more than to copy and paste from an islamophobic website with the following link:
http://www.fuckfrance.com/topic/3498118/1/Discussions/A-brief-primer-on-Islam.html&replies=1
In fact, Leonidas has no clue what he is talking about. From the way he writes and talks, he has clearly no knowledge about this religion. And yet, I feel that in the west this is the common ground-zero way our religion is percieved. In order to critique a religion, you must actually have read their scriptures; such idiotic, out-of-context quotations, and half-truths do nothing for this conversation. I could if I wanted to reply to all these points. But more easily, one would realize these points to be stupid ones if one actually goes and reads the Quran with interpretative texts. It definitely takes more than a few hours. I advise all you guys to go do that.
August 17th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Hi neighbors!
In this unique world discussion of the EVILS in the Koran educated Muslims proclaim the following in “Muslims Against Sharia” that we can read in Google:
The following verses promote divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination. They must be either removed from the Koran or declared outdated and invalid, and marked as such.
• 1.6: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
• 2.6: Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
• 2.7: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
• 2.8: And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
• 2.9: They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
• 2.10: There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lie.
• 2.11: And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
• 2.12: Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.
• 2.13: And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
• 2.14: And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.
• 2.15: Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
• 2.16: These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.
• 2.17: Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness — they do not see.
• 2.18: Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.
• 2.19: Or like abundant rain from the cloud in which is utter darkness and thunder and lightning; they put their fingers into their ears because of the thunder peal, for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the unbelievers.
• 2.24: But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.
• 2.34: And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
• 2.39: And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
• 2.85: Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them — while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
• 2.88: And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
• 2.89: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.
• 2.90: Evil is that for which they have sold their souls that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
• 2.93: And when We made a covenant with you and raised the mountain over you: Take hold of what We have given you with firmness and be obedient. They said: We hear and disobey. And they were made to imbibe (the love of) the calf into their hearts on account of their unbelief Say: Evil is that which your belief bids you if you are believers.
• 2.96: And you will most certainly find them the greediest of men for life (greedier) than even those who are polytheists; every one of them loves that he should be granted a life of a thousand years, and his being granted a long life will in no way remove him further off from the chastisement, and Allah sees what they
• 2.98: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
• 2.99: And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors.
• 2.100: What! whenever they make a covenant, a party of them cast it aside? Nay, most of them do not believe.
• 2.101: And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
• 2.102: And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever. Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah’s permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.
• 2.103: And if they had believed and guarded themselves (against evil), reward from Allah would certainly have been better; had they but known (this).
• 2.104: O you who believe! do not say Raina and say Unzurna and listen, and for the unbelievers there is a painful chastisement.
• 2.105: Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.
• 2.106: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
• 2.109: Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.
• 2.113: And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.
• 2.114: And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter.
• 2.120: And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
• 2.135: And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.
• 2.140: Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
• 2.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
• 2.162: Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
• 2.178: O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
• 2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
• 2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
• 2.216: Fighting is enjoined on you, and his an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
• 2.217: They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah’s way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
• 2.221: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.
• 2.222: And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
• 2.223: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
• 2.228: And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
• 2.229: Divorce may be (pronounced) twice, then keep (them) in good fellowship or let (them) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any part of what you have given them, unless both fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah; then if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, there is no blame on them for what she gives up to become free thereby. These are the limits of Allah, so do not exceed them and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah these it is that are the unjust.
• 2.230: So if he divorces her she shall not be lawful to him afterwards until she marries another husband; then if he divorces her there is no blame on them both if they return to each other (by marriage), if they think that they can keep within the limits of Allah, and these are the limits of Allah which He makes clear for a people who know.
• 2.231: And when you divorce women and they reach their prescribed time, then either retain them in good fellowship or set them free with liberality, and do not retain them for injury, so that you exceed the limits, and whoever does this, he indeed is unjust to his own soul; and do not take Allah’s communications for a mockery, and remember the favor of Allah upon you, and that which He has revealed to you of the Book and the Wisdom, admonishing you thereby; and be careful (of your duty to) Allah, and know that Allah is the Knower of all things.
• 2.232: And when you have divorced women and they have ended — their term (of waiting), then do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree among themselves in a lawful manner; with this is admonished he among you who believes in Allah and the last day, this is more profitable and purer for you; and Allah knows while you do not know.
• 2.233: And the mothers should suckle their children for two whole years for him who desires to make complete the time of suckling; and their maintenance and their clothing must be — borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity; neither shall a mother be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor a father on account of his child, and a similar duty (devolves) on the (father’s) heir, but if both desire weaning by mutual consent and counsel, there is no blame on them, and if you wish to engage a wet-nurse for your children, there is no blame on you so long as you pay what you promised for according to usage; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah and know that Allah sees what you do.
• 2.234: And (as for) those of you who die and leave wives behind, they should keep themselves in waiting for four months and ten days; then when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner; and Allah is aware of what you do.
• 2.254: O you who believe! spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession, and the unbelievers they are the unjust.
• 2.257: Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
• 2.258: Have you not considered him (Namrud) who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.
• 2.264: O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by reproach and injury, like him who spends his property to be seen of men and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain falls upon it, so it leaves it bare; they shall not be able to gain anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.
• 2.282: O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.
• 2.286: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.
• 3.4: Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
• 3.10: (As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire.
• 3.11: Like the striving of the people of Firon and those before them; they rejected Our communications, so Allah destroyed them on account of their faults; and Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
• 3.12: Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
• 3.13: Indeed there was a sign for you in the two hosts (which) met together in encounter; one party fighting in the way of Allah and the other unbelieving, whom they saw twice as many as themselves with the sight of the eye and Allah strengthens with His aid whom He pleases; most surely there is a lesson in this for those who have sight.
• 3.19: Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
• 3.21: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and slay the prophets unjustly and slay those among men who enjoin justice, announce to them a painful chastisement.
• 3.22: Those are they whose works shall become null in this world as well as the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.
• 3.23: Have you not considered those (Jews) who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back and they withdraw.
• 3.24: This is because they say: The fire shall not touch us but for a few days; and what they have forged deceives them in the matter of their religion.
• 3.25: Then how will it be when We shall gather them together on a day about which there is no doubt, and every soul shall be fully paid what it has earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly?
• 3.28: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
• 3.32: Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
• 3.56: Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.
• 3.57: And as to those who believe and do good deeds, He will pay them fully their rewards; and Allah does not love the unjust.
• 3.85: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
• 3.86: How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.
• 3.87: (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.
• 3.88: Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.
• 3.89: Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
• 3.90: Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.
• 3.91: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.
• 3.99: Say: O followers of the Book! why do you hinder him who believes from the way of Allah? You seek (to make) it crooked, while you are witness, and Allah is not heedless of what you do.
• 3.100: O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book, they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed.
• 3.106: On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved.
• 3.110: You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.
• 3.111: They shall by no means harm you but with a slight evil; and if they fight with you they shall turn (their) backs to you, then shall they not be helped.
• 3.112: Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.
• 3.116: (As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah; and these are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
• 3.127: That He may cut off a portion from among those who disbelieve, or abase them so that they should return disappointed of attaining what they desired.
• 3.131: And guard yourselves against the fire, which has been prepared for the unbelievers.
• 3.140: If a wound has afflicted you (at Ohud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you; and Allah does not love the unjust.
• 3.141: And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings.
• 3.147: And their saying was no other than that they said: Our Lord! forgive us our faults and our extravagance in our affair and make firm our feet and help us against the unbelieving people.
• 3.149: O you who believe! if you obey those who disbelieve they will turn you back upon your heels, so you will turn back losers.
• 3.151: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
• 3.156: O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain; so Allah makes this to be an intense regret in their hearts; and Allah gives life and causes death and Allah sees what you do.
• 3.167: And that He might know the hypocrites; and it was said to them: Come, fight in Allah’s way, or defend yourselves. They said: If we knew fighting, we would certainly have followed you. They were on that day much nearer to unbelief than to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts, and Allah best knows what they conceal.
• 3.176: And let not those grieve you who fall into unbelief hastily; surely they can do no harm to Allah at all; Allah intends that He should not give them any portion in the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
• 3.177: Surely those who have bought unbelief at the price of faith shall do no harm at all to Allah, and they shall have a painful chastisement.
• 3.178: And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement.
• 3.196: Let it not deceive you that those who disbelieve go to and fro in the cities fearlessly.
• 3.197: A brief enjoyment! then their abode is hell, and evil is the resting-place.
• 4.3: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
• 4.11: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
• 4.12: And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
• 4.14: And whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement.
• 4.15: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
• 4.16: And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
• 4.18: And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.
• 4.24: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah’s ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
• 4.25: And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
• 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
• 4.37: Those who are niggardly and bid people to be niggardly and hide what Allah has given them out of His grace; and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.
• 4.42: On that day will those who disbelieve and disobey the Apostle desire that the earth were leveled with them, and they shall not hide any word from Allah.
• 4.43: O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath unless (you are) traveling on the road until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
• 4.46: Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and Unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
• 4.47: O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violators of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
• 4.48: Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
• 4.49: Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.
• 4.50: See how they forge the lie against Allah, and this is sufficient as a manifest sin.
• 4.51: Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe.
• 4.52: Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him.
• 4.55: So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn.
• 4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
• 4.61: And when it is said to them: Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Apostle, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you with (utter) aversion.
• 4.74: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world’s life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
• 4.76: Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
• 4.82: Do they not then meditate on the Koran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
• 4.83: And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
• 4.84: Fight then in Allah’s way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
• 4.88: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
• 4.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
• 4.91: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
• 4.101: And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
• 4.102: And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
• 4.137: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.
• 4.138: Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement:
• 4.139: Those who take the unbelievers for guardians rather than believers. Do they seek honor from them? Then surely all honor is for Allah.
• 4.140: And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah’s communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.
• 4.141: Those who wait for (some misfortune to befall) you then If you have a victory from Allah they say: Were we not with you? And i. there IS a chance for the unbelievers, they say: Did we not acquire the mastery over you and defend you from the believers? So Allah shall Judge between you on the day of resurrection, and Allah will by no means give the unbelievers a way against the believers.
• 4.142: Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.
• 4.144: O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
• 4.145: Surely the hypocrites are in the lowest stage of the fire and you shall not find a helper for them.
• 4.150: Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His apostles and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His apostles and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that.
• 4.151: These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.
• 4.155: Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.
• 4.157: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
• 4.160: Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah’s way.
• 4.161: And their taking usury though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement.
• 4.167: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from Allah’s way, they indeed have strayed off into a remote
• 4.168: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
• 4.169: Except the path of hell, to abide in it for ever, and this is easy to Allah.
• 4.171: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
• 4.176: They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.
• 5.12: And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.
• 5.13: But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
• 5.17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah — He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And Allah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He pleases; and Allah has power over all things,
• 5.18: And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.
• 5.33: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.
• 5.36: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.
• 5.37: They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.
• 5.38: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
• 5.41: O Apostle! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
• 5.51: O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
• 5.54: O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah’s way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah’s Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
• 5.57: O ye who believe! Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scriptures before you.
• 5.58: And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand.
• 5.59: Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?
• 5.60: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
• 5.61: And when they come to you, they say: We believe; and indeed they come in with unbelief and indeed they go forth with it; and Allah knows best what they concealed.
• 5.62: And you will see many of them striving with one another to hasten in sin and exceeding the limits, and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired; certainly evil is that which they do.
• 5.63: Why do not the learned men and the doctors of law prohibit them from their speaking of what is sinful and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired? Certainly evil is that which they work.
• 5.64: And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.
• 5.67: O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
• 5.68: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
• 5.72: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.
• 5.73: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
• 5.78: Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.
• 5.79: They used not to forbid each other the hateful things (which) they did; certainly evil was that which they did.
• 5.80: You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.
• 5.81: And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! most of them are transgressors.
• 5.82: Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
• 5.86: And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the companions of the flame.
• 5.101: O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Koran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
• 5.102: A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
• 5.115: Allah said: Surely I will send it down to you, but whoever shall disbelieve afterwards from among you, surely I will chastise him with a chastisement with which I will not chastise, anyone among the nations
• 6.25: And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
• 6.30: And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.
• 6.45: So the roots of the people who were unjust were cut off; and all praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
• 6.70: And leave those who have taken their religion for a play and an idle sport, and whom this world’s life has deceived, and remind (them) thereby lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; it shall not have besides Allah any guardian nor an intercessor, and if it should seek to give every compensation, it shall not be accepted from it; these are they who shall be given up to destruction for what they earned; they shall have a drink of boiling water and a painful chastisement because they disbelieved.
• 6.130: O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you apostles from among you, relating to you My communications and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say: We bear witness against ourselves; and this world’s life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.
• 6.137: And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
• 6.146: And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
• 6.147: But if they give you the lie, then say: Your Lord is the Lord of All-encompassing mercy; and His punishment cannot be averted from the guilty people.
• 6.148: Those who are polytheists will say: If Allah had pleased we would not have associated (aught with Him) nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden (to ourselves) anything; even so did those before them reject until they tasted Our punishment. Say: Have you any knowledge with you so you should bring it forth to us? You only follow a conjecture and you only tell lies.
• 7.37: Who is then more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or rejects His communications? (As for) those, their portion of the Book shall reach them, until when Our messengers come to them causing them to die, they shall say: Where is that which you used to call upon besides Allah? They would say: They are gone away from us; and they shall bear witness against themselves that they were unbelievers
• 7.44: And the dwellers of the garden will call out to the inmates of the fire: Surely we have found what our Lord promised us to be true; have you too found what your Lord promised to be true? They will say: Yes. Then a crier will cry out among them that the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
• 7.45: Who hinder (people) from Allah’s way and seek to make it crooked, and they are disbelievers in the hereafter.
• 7.50: And the inmates of the fire shall call out to the dwellers of the garden, saying: Pour on us some water or of that which Allah has given you. They shall say: Surely Allah has prohibited them both to the unbelievers.
• 7.66: The chiefs of those who disbelieved from among his people said: Most surely we see you in folly, and most surely we think you to be of the liars.
• 7.162: But those who were unjust among them changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them; so We sent upon them a pestilence from heaven because they were unjust.
• 7.176: And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.
• 8.7: And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.
• 8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
• 8.13: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
• 8.14: This taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
• 8.15: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
• 8.16: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
• 8.17: So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
• 8.18: This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.
• 8.19: If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers.
• 8.30: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.
• 8.31: And when Our communications are recited to them, they say: We have heard indeed; if we pleased we could say the like of it; this is nothing but the stories of the ancients.
• 8.32: And when they said: O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment.
• 8.33: But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness.
• 8.34: And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.
• 8.35: And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved.
• 8.36: Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.
• 8.37: That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.
• 8.38: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
• 8.39: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
• 8.49: When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was disease said: Their religion has deceived them; and whoever trusts in Allah, then surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
• 8.50: And had you seen when the angels will cause to die those who disbelieve, smiting their faces and their backs, and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning.
• 8.52: In the manner of the people of Firon and those before them; they disbelieved in Allah’s communications, therefore Allah destroyed them on account of their faults; surely Allah is strong, severe in requiting (evil).
• 8.55: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.
• 8.60: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
• 8.65: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
• 8.73: And (as for) those who disbelieve, some of them are the guardians of others; if you will not do it, there will be in the land persecution and great mischief.
• Sura 9: “The Immunity”
• 10.4: To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance, then He reproduces it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall have a drink of hot water and painful punishment because they disbelieved.
• 10.70: (It is only) a provision in this world, then to Us shall be their return; then We shall make them taste severe punishment because they disbelieved.
• 13.5: And if you would wonder, then wondrous is their saying: What! when we are dust, shall we then certainly be in a new creation? These are they who disbelieve in their Lord, and these have chains on their necks, and they are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.
• 13.32: And apostles before you were certainly mocked at, but I gave respite to those who disbelieved, then I destroyed them; how then was My requital (of evil)?
• 13.35: A likeness of the garden which the righteous are promised; there now beneath it rivers, its food and shades are perpetual; this is the requital of those who guarded (against evil), and the requital of the unbelievers is the fire.
• 14.2: (Of) Allah, Whose is whatever is in the heavens and whatever Is in the earth; and woe to the unbelievers on account of the severe chastisement
• 14.3: (To) those who love this world’s life more than the hereafter, and turn away from Allah’s path and desire to make it crooked; these are in a great error.
• 14.13: And those who disbelieved said to their apostles: We will most certainly drive you forth from our land, or else you shall come back into our religion. So their Lord revealed to them: Most certainly We will destroy the unjust.
• 14.14: And most certainly We will settle you in the land after them; this is for him who fears standing in My presence and who fears My threat.
• 14.15: And they asked for judgment and every insolent opposer was disappointed:
• 14.16: Hell is before him and he shall be given to drink of festering water:
• 14.17: He will drink it little by little and will not be able to swallow it agreeably, and death will come to him from every quarter, but he shall not die; and there shall be vehement chastisement before him.
• 14.18: The parable of those who disbelieve in their Lord: their actions are like ashes on which the wind blows hard on a stormy day; they shall not have power over any thing out of what they have earned; this is the great error.
• 14.22: And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment.
• 16.26: Those before them did indeed devise plans, but Allah demolished their building from the foundations, so the roof fell down on them from above them, and the punishment came to them from whence they did not perceive.
• 16.27: Then on the resurrection day He will bring them to disgrace and say: Where are the associates you gave Me, for whose sake you became hostile? Those who are given the knowledge will say: Surely the disgrace and the evil are this day upon the unbelievers:
• 16.28: Those whom the angels cause to die while they are unjust to themselves. Then would they offer submission: We used not to do any evil. Aye! surely Allah knows what you did.
• 16.29: Therefore enter the gates of hell, to abide therein; so certainly evil is the dwelling place of the proud.
• 16.88: (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah’s way, We will add chastisement to their chastisement because they made mischief.
• 16.106: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
• 16.107: This is because they love this world’s life more than the hereafter, and because Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.
• 16.108: These are they on whose hearts and their hearing and their eyes Allah has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones.
• 16.116: And, for what your tongues describe, do not utter the lie, (saying) This is lawful and this is unlawful, in order to forge a lie against Allah; surely those who forge the lie against Allah shall not prosper.
• 16.117: A little enjoyment and they shall have a painful punishment.
• 16.118: And for those who were Jews
September 19th, 2009 at 7:59 am
The killings in Ft Hood yesterday show once again that there is also an ideological war going on right now! We must read the Koran,find for ourselves all the evil that is preached there against all of us the INFIDELS and DEMAND from our politicians to ban the Koran as unconstitutional,stop muslim immigration,and stop buying muslim oil by developing green sources of energy.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Islam is founded on the exploitation of women.Help the women tbreak the Yoke the Koran imposed upon them,support their human rights,protect them from persecution and genital mutilation ,educate them,defend them from exploitation and Islam will collapse the way the Soviet union did in 1989.
February 25th, 2010 at 6:19 pm